-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Walter [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 10:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pam's house is a very very very nice house, with two cracks i n the wall..

In a message dated 1/2/2003 1:37:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:

Pam,

Thanks for the pix.  My guess remains differential settlement, although there could also be some weird stuff happening below the line where the two roofs meet, due to lateral thrust (I think it's thrust, and will have everybody jumping down my throat soon enough if it's not thrust) on the walls imposed by the roof framing at the tops of the walls.   The roof was replaced, including joists, about 5 years ago - I remember driving by when the work was being done.  The replacement was to the entire house.   I like Ken's idea that the reroofing screwed everything up, but  am nevertheless a little uneasy with it.  On the other hand, if the pitch was lowered a good deal [exactly how much is that, smartypants! ?] it might make sense after all. The last time I looked up in the "attic", which is tough to get to from our bedroom closet - it looked OK to me.  However, I wasn't looking too closely at the connection from there.

Having said all that, am I correct in assuming that the problem on the front of the house is in the wall (along the quoins)  to the left of the front door, and at the back where the 2 masonry wings meet? Is it bad in these places or not, dammit?  How many times do we have to ask?  Ralph - How many times do I have to tell you people, especially after AGONIZING over typing the picture that Michael thought was a wonderful dance step, although his dog thought otherwise, to make sure the picture painted a few hundred words, that yes, the problem is where the walls meet against the quoined (is that a word?) walls.  Do you need new glasses? ;-)  And is there still a masonry wall between the two wings, or has  it been removed?   The cobblestone wall between the 2 sections still exists.  There are two standard size 18" thick doorway arches (no door) on the first floor, and one on the second floor.  On both floors, the floor of the old section is a step up from t! he new section.  You'd probably be in REALLY deep shit if the'd taken the wall out.  Be grateful for small favors.   I am very grateful, because I think you're right.  I figure the good doctor who built the house lived and set up practice in that part while building the other part.  For historical reference, and especially to those of the feminist persuasion, this is the house where Elizabeth Blackwell interned.  For those not of a feminist persuasion, we also have unconfirmed information that the (or one of the) founders of Haloid Corp., later known as Xerox, lived in the house. 

Do you have any close-up detail photos of whatever cracks there are that are visible on the exterior?   I wasn't clear in my original post - the cracks outside are radial ones around the windows, and are minor.  Does this mean they radiate out from the arch over the window head? In! which case, these sound like the arch settling.   They radiate from the corners of the lintels and sills, primarily at the corners, but I seem to recall a couple from the center of said windows.  The CRACKS of the year are on interior walls. WHICH interior walls? Ya gotta tell us.  As in, I cannot see the cracks on the outside of the house for the back crack, and the one that is in the middle of the house (refer back to the drawing for clarity), of course is interior.  I cannot tell if there is a similar crack along the connection to the quoins in the front wall because that room is currently Fibber McGee's closet.   And are these the interior faces of exterior walls, or are they real interior walls (masonry) or partitions (wood frame)?  One of the walls is a masonry wall, the other is a plaster and lath wall. That's why I was saying I don't happen to have any interior pictures to show the cracks.   Are the cracks wider at the top of the! wall than at the bottom, or vice versa?   The cracks look to have started at the top of the wall at the top of the 2nd floor, or the top of the 1st? And why do you think they started at the top and are working their way down?  Top of the second floor.  I'm guessing they started at the top because the cracks are wider at the top (about 3/4" at the top, down to pencil lead size at the bottom)   and run down it. How far down is down?  6 or 7 feet.  One looks like it's curving out from the wall where it meets at the corner.  ! Ya gotta explain this one better. I knew this one wouldn't make sense.  This crack runs both on the plaster and lath wall and then around the interior bend to the quoined wall (i.e., the crack covers two walls).  Where the crack starts into the quoined wall, it's like the plaster covering on that wall is being pulled away from the wall.   Worse at the front than the rear, or vice versa?   Are you getting water penetration to the interior at or near the cracks?   Not that we have noticed - for instance, we don't notice any moisture on the interior walls, nor in the basement or as best we can see in the crawl space.   My guess is that rather than fooling around with thes! e guys' mortar mixes, you should just caulk the damn crack, since whet her it's moving or not, it needs to be filled (to keep the weather out; pointing the crack isn't going to give you any structural value to speak of), and caulk is easier to do and will expand/contract, or just sit there, as required.   Yes, the outside certainly needs something so any damage (past and future) is avoided.  However, I would prefer if we can hold off until spring for the minor exterior cracks, then I can find a mason who can match the mortar colour - ][<en once told me the term for this, but I don't recall it.  I think Ken is right about caulking now, and keep the water out and prevent damage until yo! u can do the right job in the spring.  If you ever GET spring up there.   Spring lasts about a day and a half - especially with our record snowfall for the season so far in 2002.  What do you think of getting caution cone orange for the caulk colour?  The colour is toward the yellow, and I think caulk would reduce the aesthetics and value of the work.  One of those "it ain't worth doin' if it ain't done right" philosophies.  I hold the same stick-up-my- ass view, which in some cases makes more sense than others, and generally enables me to do NOTHING on my own house.  However, this is one of the other cases.   Funny, my husband happened to send me a quote from Stephen King last night (one of his favourite authors) that said, "If the job isn't worth doing right the first time, when do you think you'll find time to fix it later?" 

Lastly, do you have any sense of whether the cracks gotten appreciably wider in the recent past, or have they been there for 100-- or 150-- years?   There might be a few more radial cracks since we moved in, but I'm not positive.  The interior cracks HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO ASK YOU WHERE THESE INTERIOR CRACKS ARE, FOR GOD'S SAKE? JEEZ, LOUISE!  JEEZ, LOUISE CHEEZ WHIZ, I thought I made this clear the first time with the Michael two-step diagram!  in question either were there when we m! oved in (but small), or they are new since we moved in.  It's because we have only lived there 3 years that the growth of these cracks concerns me.  If they are the product of differential settlement, why would it be so great now compared to the assumed past 160 years?  The short answer is, I don't know. A better answer is that thay may have been spackled over before you bought the house and are just now reappearing.  However, you are quite right that it is unlikely that the differential settlement is just now coming to light after 160 years.   I had wondered about possible recent spackling, but this didn't look like that to me.  It's still a possibilitiy.  I do not think this is new plaster that's finally aging - it has a pretty old look to the components of it.  If it were new, I have a feeling the prior owners (who put in a coupl! e drop ceilings) would have just put up sheetrock if they had done any work of that sort.  A spot of spackle here and there is a lot cheaper than a shitload of sheetrock all over, and disrupts the woodwork less, too.  Was everything freshly painted when you bought the house?   The paint job was not brand new, but may have been a couple years old when we moved in.  We never met the previous owners, as they had to move out of state prior to me seeing the house.  In which case the possibility that they spackled over everything seems more likely. If it was all freshly wallpapered, it's even more likely that the plaster was cracked all to hell and that the wallpaper is there to cover up the cracks. They spent all their money on the roof.  Look at the bright side-- God knows what sort of mess you'd have if they hadn't spent money on the roof.  Or maybe it woulda b! een such a disaster that you woulda had sense enough not to buy this shithouse in the first place, and it would all be some other jerk's problem!   I recall the roof before they replaced it had a sag in the middle - just noticable.  I would imagine the damage under the rafters had to be pretty bad for them to replace the whole thing. 

Now lemme ask another question: It sounds to me like you are now saying the cracks are in the plaster, and that the plaster cracks don't (necessarily) correspond) to open mortar joints in the exterior masonry. Is that correct?     That's what I know of right now.  Is the plaster applied directly to the stone, or was it furred out and lathed (with wood or wire lath)?   Furred out.     I have not been up a ladder to look at the exterior masonry to see if there are corresponding cracks - the ladder is still at my mother's house from painting this summer and we have to rent a freaking U-Haul to get it back.  It's a basic PITA that's keeping us from doing a closer inspection.  From the ground level, I cannot see cracks, but I won't say that means they aren't there. 

I would say that the bottom line is that unless you've got serious cracking visible in the exterior masonry (or evidence of extensive prior repairs to the exterior), it's unlikely that the interior cracked plaster is of any great concern.    I hope that's all it is.  Thanks for all the excellent thoughts and questions.   

Ralph