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Content-Description: Card for J.A. Drew Diaz
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n:Diaz;J.A. Drew
tel;cell:917.971.1577
tel;fax:212.741.7423
tel;work:212.741.7348
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://edgedc.com/
org:EDGE Development Construction
version:2.1
email;internet:[log in to unmask]
adr;quoted-printable:;;Suite 1205=0D=0A150 W 28th St;NY;NY;10001;http://edgedc.com/
note;quoted-printable:It's a heck of a world when an all American boy =0D=0Acan't carry a pocketknife.=0D=0A
fn:Drew Diaz
end:vcard
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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:20:02 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Ken Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 2 Jakes
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You're pulling my jake, right?
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">You're pulling my jake, right?</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:32:04 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Bruce Marcham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: outhouses
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On Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:33 AM John Leeke wrote:
built outhouses, and billed himself as "The Specialist"
>
I remember when I was at Boy Scout camp (Camp Barton on Cayuga Lake, north
of Ithaca) I spent a weekend at camp, something that usually only a dozen or
so guys did. In order to keep us entertained (and out of trouble) the guy
who was in charge sat us down after dinner and read us a short story about a
person who built privies. I imagine the story read was "The Specialist" as
I recall being impressed by the praciticality of the idea about locating the
woodpile on the way to the privy. My recollection is that the idea was the
woman would be less embarassed by going out to the privy and finding
occupied if she could make it look as if she was really going out to get a
load of wood.
Regarding the multiple-hole outhouses my girlfriend told me about going to a
bathroom in a restaurant with a friend (as stereotypes often say women do)
and finding that there were two toilets side by side with no partitions. I
gather in the Army barracks of old this was common (as are gang showers for
men) but not so common in women's facilities.
As to the three-story outhouse there is a photo set circulating about
redneck life that has a "contemporary" two story one.
Bruce "prefers the Kohler flush to a Clivus Multrum" anyday...
Humanure http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#specialist
"The Specialist"
by Charles Sale, illustrated by William Kermode, Putnam, ISBN 0911416005
The wonderful story of Lem Putt, country carpenter and specialist builder of
privies. Lem actually existed, and Chic Sale knew him, and both lampoons him
and respects him as "an artist in his way". Sale was an actor and
"performed" this story hundreds of times, and by the time he wrote it (to
copyright it in order to stop other actors stealing it) he had it honed to
perfection. It's a rare delight. And it's more than that: Lem Putt knew his
business. "There's a lot of fine points to puttin' up a first-class privy
that the average man don't think about. It's no job for an amachoor, take
you my word on it. There's a whole lot more to it than you can see by just
takin' a few squints at your nabor's." This is what a water and sanitation
engineer who works in developing countries said about it: "If I could
recommend one course book for all wastewater engineers this would be it."
Not just wastewater engineers -- Lem Putt's fine points should be
everybody's fine points. Full-text online.
Here's the entire "Specialist" story (it's short) on-line with great
illustrations:
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/specialist.html
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>RE: outhouses</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>On Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:33 AM John Leeke =
wrote: </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>built outhouses, and billed himself as "The =
Specialist"</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I remember when I was at Boy Scout camp (Camp Barton =
on Cayuga Lake, north of Ithaca) I spent a weekend at camp, something =
that usually only a dozen or so guys did. In order to keep us =
entertained (and out of trouble) the guy who was in charge sat us down =
after dinner and read us a short story about a person who built =
privies. I imagine the story read was "The Specialist" =
as I recall being impressed by the praciticality of the idea about =
locating the woodpile on the way to the privy. My recollection is =
that the idea was the woman would be less embarassed by going out to =
the privy and finding occupied if she could make it look as if she was =
really going out to get a load of wood.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Regarding the multiple-hole outhouses my girlfriend =
told me about going to a bathroom in a restaurant with a friend (as =
stereotypes often say women do) and finding that there were two toilets =
side by side with no partitions. I gather in the Army barracks of =
old this was common (as are gang showers for men) but not so common in =
women's facilities.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>As to the three-story outhouse there is a photo set =
circulating about redneck life that has a "contemporary" two =
story one. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bruce "prefers the Kohler flush to a Clivus =
Multrum" anyday...</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Humanure <A =
HREF=3D"http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#specialist" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#speciali=
st</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>"The Specialist"</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>by Charles Sale, illustrated by William Kermode, =
Putnam, ISBN 0911416005</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>The wonderful story of Lem Putt, country carpenter =
and specialist builder of privies. Lem actually existed, and Chic Sale =
knew him, and both lampoons him and respects him as "an artist in =
his way". Sale was an actor and "performed" this story =
hundreds of times, and by the time he wrote it (to copyright it in =
order to stop other actors stealing it) he had it honed to perfection. =
It's a rare delight. And it's more than that: Lem Putt knew his =
business. "There's a lot of fine points to puttin' up a =
first-class privy that the average man don't think about. It's no job =
for an amachoor, take you my word on it. There's a whole lot more to it =
than you can see by just takin' a few squints at your nabor's." =
This is what a water and sanitation engineer who works in developing =
countries said about it: "If I could recommend one course book for =
all wastewater engineers this would be it." Not just wastewater =
engineers -- Lem Putt's fine points should be everybody's fine points. =
Full-text online. </FONT></P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Here's the entire "Specialist" story (it's =
short) on-line with great illustrations:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/specialist.html" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/specialist.ht=
ml</A></FONT>
</P>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:32:46 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Ken Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The quest for historical name calling
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1st grade tools & that suits were just another tool.
Drew,
Different tools, different intentions of work. I like wearing a suit every
few years but try to avoid them otherwise. Besides, I got friends that wear
suits and it is a hell of a lot more interesting to invite them along on a
project for decor than not. I was wearing a tie for a while but found that
they cut off the circulation and increased my frequency of emergency room
visits, that is, before the ablation... and since then wearing a tie just has
not seemed quite as satisfying of an experience as it used to be. I think it
has to do with a confusion over not knowing who I care to impress. A project
manager, engineer I worked with years ago I was always impressed how he
dressed like a slob, drove a junker, but knew his work inside out and ran
circles around everyone else on the project. Then he got a stroke and nobody
knows him any more.
The Sedaris book was hilarious and I read it on the Vermont trip to the
Timber Framers Guild conference. We also spent a nice day driving on dirt
roads in the Green Mountains and getting really well disoriented. We were on
a self guided northern Vermont bookstore tour. Dirt roads that go up and up
then end in a sparse birch wood, without going over the ridge, are neat.
Neater still the passes that say they are closed in winter. Signs warning
black bears. Great autumn color, then a few days later it snowed. We got
home across the sound before the ice storm came along. No incident of trucks
driving off the ferry for us... though I am really clear on where the semi
rolled off this week on the New London... went on that ferry not too long
back on a great day of fog.
][<en
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><I>1st grade tools & that suits were just another tool.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></I> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
Drew, <BR>
<BR>
Different tools, different intentions of work. I like wearing a suit every few years but try to avoid them otherwise. Besides, I got friends that wear suits and it is a hell of a lot more interesting to invite them along on a project for decor than not. I was wearing a tie for a while but found that they cut off the circulation and increased my frequency of emergency room visits, that is, before the ablation... and since then wearing a tie just has not seemed quite as satisfying of an experience as it used to be. I think it has to do with a confusion over not knowing who I care to impress. A project manager, engineer I worked with years ago I was always impressed how he dressed like a slob, drove a junker, but knew his work inside out and ran circles around everyone else on the project. Then he got a stroke and nobody knows him any more.<BR>
<BR>
The Sedaris book was hilarious and I read it on the Vermont trip to the Timber Framers Guild conference. We also spent a nice day driving on dirt roads in the Green Mountains and getting really well disoriented. We were on a self guided northern Vermont bookstore tour. Dirt roads that go up and up then end in a sparse birch wood, without going over the ridge, are neat. Neater still the passes that say they are closed in winter. Signs warning black bears. Great autumn color, then a few days later it snowed. We got home across the sound before the ice storm came along. No incident of trucks driving off the ferry for us... though I am really clear on where the semi rolled off this week on the New London... went on that ferry not too long back on a great day of fog.<BR>
<BR>
][<en</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:07:09 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Ken Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: outhouses
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"...there is a photo set circulating about redneck life that has a
"contemporary" two story one"
Bruce,
The version I have has the upper level labeled MANAGMENT and the lower level
EMPLOYEES.
Thanks for the full text reference to The Specialist! As I recall the book I
have is a 1929 edition, though I might better check before bragging.
][<en
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">"...there is a photo set circulating about redneck life that has a "contemporary" two story one"</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
Bruce,<BR>
<BR>
The version I have has the upper level labeled MANAGMENT and the lower level EMPLOYEES.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the full text reference to The Specialist! As I recall the book I have is a 1929 edition, though I might better check before bragging.<BR>
<BR>
][<en<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:46:27 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: "Mark W. James" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: outhouses
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In a message dated 11/21/2002 4:40:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ken Follett <[log in to unmask]> writes:
>not near as much fun now that the sniper is behind bars.
>
>Mark, Obviously you have been too busy to get out much... the area has plenty
>of unsavory characters to avoid... like down near the mall there is a whole
>outhouse of snipers. ][<en
>
Yeah, I'm kind of over in the South East section of Rockville, which for some damn reason, I can never figure out where I am in relation to anything else. I need a compass everytime I venture out. I could go out for lunch, and they have no idea when I might show back up. The problem is, I don't know either. The worst experience has been those damn circles in DC. I was asked to move Bryan's truck one night at the National Trust, where he was teaching class. Seemed simple enough, I was on Massachusetts and 18th. Well I hit the circle, and came back around, to hit the same street, but ended up on Rhode Island. Needless to say, I missed most of the class. Blocks are not layed out in normal fashion. One wrong turn, next thing you know, you are in another State.
Gawd, and I thought Oregon was nuts!
Mark
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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:27:44 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: "S. Stokowski" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: DC, was Re: outhouses
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In a message dated 11/22/02 3:47:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
> Blocks are not layed out in normal fashion.
Mark:
The DC street system used to confuse me until I lived there. Then, the scales
fell from my eyes. Most of the streets in DC itself are either N-S (numbers)
or E-W (letters). The streets are organized by quadrants with the Capital
Building at the center. There are four quadrants (NE, NW, SE, SW), but NE
and NW are the only two of any size. Imprinted on top of this is a repeating
radial pattern of avenues with different state or other proper names. Of
these, only a few turned into actual driving routes. These are Connecticut,
Florida, Massachusetts, South Dakota, Pennsylvania, and New York Avenues.
The avenues come together at circles. To navigate a circle, one needs to
develop a 1,000 yard stare. Decide where you want to go before the circle
and keep an eye on that spot as you make the turn. If you mess up, then just
get onto the N-S or E-W streets and correct the problem. It is really very
simple to geographically locate oneself in DC.
Parking, however, is a different issue. It is expensive and time-consuming
to park in DC. I recommend parking remotely and taking the METRO everywhere.
I always do, and I was a DC local.
I carry and use a compass to get me instantly going in the correct direction
when I come out of a subway station. Going the correct direction helps to
prevent somebody from identifying you as prey.
Steve Stokowski
Stone Products Consultants
Building Products Microscopy
10 Clark St., Ste. A
Ashland, Mass. 01721-2145
508-881-6364 (ph. & fax)
http://members.aol.com/crushstone/petro.htm
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/22/02 3:47:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Blocks are not layed out in normal fashion.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><BR>
Mark:<BR>
<BR>
The DC street system used to confuse me until I lived there. Then, the scales fell from my eyes. Most of the streets in DC itself are either N-S (numbers) or E-W (letters). The streets are organized by quadrants with the Capital Building at the center. There are four quadrants (NE, NW, SE, SW), but NE and NW are the only two of any size. Imprinted on top of this is a repeating radial pattern of avenues with different state or other proper names. Of these, only a few turned into actual driving routes. These are Connecticut, Florida, Massachusetts, South Dakota, Pennsylvania, and New York Avenues. The avenues come together at circles. To navigate a circle, one needs to develop a 1,000 yard stare. Decide where you want to go before the circle and keep an eye on that spot as you make the turn. If you mess up, then just get onto the N-S or E-W streets and correct the problem. It is really very simple to geographically locate oneself in DC.<BR>
<BR>
Parking, however, is a different issue. It is expensive and time-consuming to park in DC. I recommend parking remotely and taking the METRO everywhere. I always do, and I was a DC local. <BR>
<BR>
I carry and use a compass to get me instantly going in the correct direction when I come out of a subway station. Going the correct direction helps to prevent somebody from identifying you as prey. <BR>
<BR>
Steve Stokowski<BR>
Stone Products Consultants<BR>
Building Products Microscopy<BR>
10 Clark St., Ste. A<BR>
Ashland, Mass. 01721-2145</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0">508-881-6364 (ph. & fax)<BR>
http://members.aol.com/crushstone/petro.htm</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:17:55 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: DC French Radiators
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This business with diagonal and crooked streets is bullshit. If rectangular
grid plans were good enough for the Greeks and/or Romans, they're good enough
for everybody else, and everybody since. No irregular shaped blocks, no
irregular lots, no irregular plans, no irregular elevations. The hell with
these cow track and French radiator streets.
Sign me,
Plumb Level Straight and True
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">This business with diagonal and crooked streets is bullshit. If rectangular grid plans were good enough for the Greeks and/or Romans, they're good enough for everybody else, and everybody since. No irregular shaped blocks, no irregular lots, no irregular plans, no irregular elevations. The hell with these cow track and French radiator streets.<BR>
<BR>
Sign me,<BR>
<BR>
Plumb Level Straight and True</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:08:26 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: outhouses
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In a message dated 11/22/2002 11:33:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
> Bruce "prefers the Kohler flush to a Clivus Multrum" anyday...
You got dat right.
Ralph
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/22/2002 11:33:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Bruce "prefers the Kohler flush to a Clivus Multrum" anyday...</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
You got dat right.<BR>
<BR>
Ralph</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:21:05 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Critique of Pure Vinyl Replacement Windows
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In a message dated 11/22/2002 8:53:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
>
> >> He chose these shitty replacement windows.
>>
> I bet it was his upbringing that did it. Sign me, Free Will(y)
>
Perhaps, but in choosing the shitty replacement windows because of his
upbringing, he degraded his environment.
Who came first: the Chechen or the egg?
Ralph
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/22/2002 8:53:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">He chose these shitty replacement windows. <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">I bet it was his upbringing that did it. Sign me, Free Will(y) <BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Perhaps, but in choosing the shitty replacement windows because of his upbringing, he degraded his environment.<BR>
<BR>
Who came first: the Chechen or the egg?<BR>
<BR>
Ralph </FONT></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:23:01 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: outhouses - Smith, or Vassar?
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In a message dated 11/22/02 11:33:04 AM , [log in to unmask] writes:
> Regarding the multiple-hole outhouses my girlfriend told me about going to a
> bathroom in a restaurant with a friend (as stereotypes often say women do)
> and finding that there were two toilets side by side with no partitions. I
> gather in the Army barracks of old this was common (as are gang showers for
> men) but not so common in women's facilities.
From the architect Arthur Loomis Harmon's 1923 account of his new Allerton
House, a women's hotel built in 1924 at 57th and Lexington, published in the
magazine Architecture:
[although men's hotels he designed had only showers, the Allerton House had
mostly bathtubs, although he did have to put in a few showers] "a testimony
to the influence of women's college gymnasiums".
No mention of where the woodpile was. Sincerely, wbf
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/22/02 11:33:04 AM , [log in to unmask] writes:
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Regarding the multiple-hole outhouses my girlfriend told me about going to a bathroom in a restaurant with a friend (as stereotypes often say women do) and finding that there were two toilets side by side with no partitions. I gather in the Army barracks of old this was common (as are gang showers for men) but not so common in women's facilities.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">
<BR>From the architect Arthur Loomis Harmon's 1923 account of his new Allerton House, a women's hotel built in 1924 at 57th and Lexington, published in the magazine Architecture:
<BR>
<BR>[although men's hotels he designed had only showers, the Allerton House had mostly bathtubs, although he did have to put in a few showers] "a testimony to the influence of women's college gymnasiums".
<BR>
<BR>No mention of where the woodpile was. Sincerely, wbf</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:42:52 -0800
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Cuyler Page <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Heritage Interpretation Services
Subject: Re: outhouses
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RE: outhousesI remember when I was at Boy Scout camp (Camp Barton on =
Cayuga Lake, north of Ithaca) I spent a weekend at camp, something that =
usually only a dozen or so guys did. . . . . . . . .=20
Ah yes;
A delightful memory of the same place and same situation involved =
slipping off during one "Rest Period" after lunch on a secret hike with =
some chums and finding a lone apple tree way up the hill above the tent =
campsites and learning from an elder camper the fine art of apple-on-a =
stick long distance apple launching, sending apples down over the trees =
in the directions of campsites below and judging the target results by =
the sounds of loud voices that occasionally rose up when we hit the =
tents of obediently resting campers, the prize sound being the special =
hollow thunk of hitting an outhouse roof. Learned more about =
trajectory physics that way than any other. Also learned how to run =
like the wind when we hit the Assistant Camp Leader who had left the =
office to see what all the shouting was about up in the camps during =
"Rest Period".
cp in bc
Did you ever hear the Lake Drums?
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>RE: outhouses</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I remember when I was at Boy Scout camp (Camp Barton =
on Cayuga=20
Lake, north of Ithaca) I spent a weekend at camp, something that usually =
only a=20
dozen or so guys did. . . . . . . . . </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ah yes;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>A delightful memory of the same place and same=20
situation involved slipping off during one "Rest Period" after =
lunch on a=20
secret hike with some chums and finding a lone apple tree way up =
the hill=20
above the tent campsites and learning from an elder camper the fine art =
of=20
apple-on-a stick long distance apple launching, sending apples down over =
the=20
trees in the directions of campsites below and judging the target =
results by the=20
sounds of loud voices that occasionally rose up when we hit the =
tents of=20
obediently resting campers, the prize sound being the special =
hollow thunk=20
of hitting an outhouse roof. Learned more about=20
trajectory physics that way than any other. Also =
learned how to=20
run like the wind when we hit the Assistant Camp Leader who had =
left the=20
office to see what all the shouting was about up in the =
camps during "Rest=20
Period".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>cp in bc</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Did you ever hear the Lake =
Drums?</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:10:43 -0800
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Cuyler Page <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Heritage Interpretation Services
Subject: Re: 3 Jakes
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The photo ot the three story multi-holer, two per floor, was in the =
Tucson Museum collection in 1965 when I was there assisting with =
exhibits and teaching metal casting classes. Anyone on the list here =
today from Arizona and able to go visit the Museum?
The jake-tower stood slightly independent of the main building and was =
connected by little tiny short bridges to the porches running around the =
building at each floor level. Each compartment of seats was offset from =
the one above it. The top bridgette was the longest. I always =
wondered about the sound effects in that jake-place.
cp in bc
(looking out the window at cactus here at the very Northern tip of the =
Great Sonora Desert)
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ken Follett=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: 3 Jakes
An historic B&W photo from the original old part of Tucson, Ariz. =
shows a three story "jake" beside a rooming house. =20
Culyer, I'd like to see this. Seriously. ;-) ][<en
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The photo ot the three story =
multi-holer, two=20
per floor, was in the Tucson Museum collection in 1965 when I was=20
there assisting with exhibits and teaching metal casting=20
classes. Anyone on the list here today from Arizona and able =
to go=20
visit the Museum?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The jake-tower stood =
slightly independent of=20
the main building and was connected by little tiny short bridges to the =
porches=20
running around the building at each floor level. =
Each compartment of=20
seats was offset from the one above it. The top bridgette =
was the=20
longest. I always wondered about the sound effects in =
that=20
jake-place.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>cp in bc</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(looking out the window at cactus here =
at the very=20
Northern tip of the Great Sonora Desert)</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Ken Follett</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
[log in to unmask]
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">BULLAMANKA-PINH=
[log in to unmask]</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 22, 2002 =
7:58=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: 3 Jakes</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3DArial size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">An historic B&W photo from the original old =
part of=20
Tucson, Ariz. shows a three story "jake" beside a rooming =
house. =20
<BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Culyer, I'd like to see this. =
Seriously. ;-)=20
][<en</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:29:05 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: William Gould <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 3 Jakes
In-Reply-To: <000301c292e2$5e4157c0$0e5335d1@default>
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on 11/23/02 6:10 AM, Cuyler Page at [log in to unmask] wrote:
So where did you post this photo for us to see now that we have all been
tempted.
The photo ot the three story multi-holer, two per floor, was in the Tucson
Museum collection in 1965 when I was there assisting with exhibits and
teaching metal casting classes. Anyone on the list here today from Arizona
and able to go visit the Museum?
The jake-tower stood slightly independent of the main building and was
connected by little tiny short bridges to the porches running around the
building at each floor level. Each compartment of seats was offset from the
one above it. The top bridgette was the longest. I always wondered about
the sound effects in that jake-place.
cp in bc
(looking out the window at cactus here at the very Northern tip of the Great
Sonora Desert)
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Follett <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: 3 Jakes
An historic B&W photo from the original old part of Tucson, Ariz. shows a
three story "jake" beside a rooming house.
Culyer, I'd like to see this. Seriously. ;-) ][<en
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: 3 Jakes</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
on 11/23/02 6:10 AM, Cuyler Page at [log in to unmask] wrote:<BR>
<BR>
So where did you post this photo for us to see now that we have all been te=
mpted.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">The photo ot the three story =
multi-holer, two per floor, was in the Tucson Museum collection in 1965 when=
I was there assisting with exhibits and teaching metal casting classes. &nb=
sp; Anyone on the list here today from Arizona and able to go visit the=
Museum?<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">The jake-tower stood slightly independent=
of the main building and was connected by little tiny short bridges to the =
porches running around the building at each floor level. Each compartm=
ent of seats was offset from the one above it. The top bridgette=
was the longest. I always wondered about the sound effects in t=
hat jake-place.<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">cp in bc<BR>
(looking out the window at cactus here at the very Northern tip of the Grea=
t Sonora Desert)<BR>
</FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE>----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<B>From:</B> Ken Follett <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <BR>
<B>To:</B> [log in to unmask] <BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 22, 2002 7:58 AM<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: 3 Jakes<BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">An historic B&W photo from the origin=
al old part of Tucson, Ariz. shows a three story "jake" beside a r=
ooming house. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Culyer, I'd like to see this. Seriously. ;-) ][<en</FONT></FONT> <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:37:22 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 3 Jakes
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In a message dated 11/23/2002 6:22:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
> The photo ot the three story multi-holer, two per floor, was in the Tucson
> Museum collection in 1965 when I was there assisting with exhibits and
> teaching metal casting classes. If you were teaching in 1965, we should
> all be calling you "sir." Anyone on the list here today from Arizona and
> able to go visit the Museum?
> I spent 5 years in Arch school in Tempe, after thinking I'd applied to the
> U of A. Does that count as "from" Arizona?
> The jake-tower stood slightly independent of the main building and was
> connected by little tiny short bridges to the porches running around the
> building at each floor level. Each compartment of seats was offset from
> the one above it. Good planning! The top bridgette was the longest. What a
> relief (so to speak) I always wondered about the sound effects in that
> jake-place. You are a sick, old man. All seriousness aside, I should think
> that a 3 story bldg in Tucson would have come along rather late (80's or
> 90's) in it's development; I seem to remember newspaper reports from the
> 80's in Penix which referred jokingly to a 2 (or maybe 3 story) "looming"
> over the central plaza.
> cp in bc
> (looking out the window at cactus here at the very Northern tip of the
> Great Sonora Desert) Yeah, and Chris looks out his windows at Central Park,
> the last bit remaining of the eastern tip of the Sonoran desert.
Ralph
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/23/2002 6:22:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The photo ot the three story multi-holer, two per floor, was in the Tucson Museum collection in 1965 when I was there assisting with exhibits and teaching metal casting classes. <B>If you were teaching in 1965, we should all be calling you "sir."</B> Anyone on the list here today from Arizona and able to go visit the Museum?</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B>I spent 5 years in Arch school in Tempe, after thinking I'd applied to the U of A. Does that count as "from" Arizona?</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The jake-tower stood slightly independent of the main building and was connected by little tiny short bridges to the porches running around the building at each floor level. Each compartment of seats was offset from the one above it. <B>Good planning!</B> The top bridgette was the longest. <B>What a relief (so to speak)</B> I always wondered about the sound effects in that jake-place. <B>You are a sick, old man. All seriousness aside, I should think that a 3 story bldg in Tucson would have come along rather late (80's or 90's) in it's development; I seem to remember newspaper reports from the 80's in Penix which referred jokingly to a 2 (or maybe 3 story) "looming" over the central plaza.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B> <BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">cp in bc</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">(looking out the window at cactus here at the very Northern tip of the Great Sonora Desert) <B>Yeah, and Chris looks out his windows at Central Park, the last bit remaining of the eastern tip of the Sonoran desert.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B>Ralph</B><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 13:51:03 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Leeke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Report from the Field
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First Frost, Oct. 4th, 2002
Up with the sun and a peek out the window. The first cold snap this autumn
has frosted the garden down along the old board fence with a fringe of
white. The frost predicts my day: places to go, people to meet, and miles
to go before I sleep.
Places to Go
There's little traffic and I'm cruising along the back roads across the
coastal plains, making good time through the low wooded hills of western
Maine, an occasional flash of orange and yellow leaves. Tracking west into
New Hampshire on the Kancamagus Hyway, that ribbon of asphalt tracing along
the ancient Abinaki Trail Way edging the bank of the Swift River up into the
White Mountains. The Leaf Peepers are out, driving slow, enjoying the fall
colors, 45 mph, 35, 25.20. Too slow. I'll be late for my 10:30 appointment.
My mind finally gears down to match the pace of the traffic. Lots more color
in this neck of the woods, groves of gold among the green pines, a blaze of
red glows like hot coals against dark bark. I join the real world, tracking
through the forest, connected with the earth, connected with my fellow
travelers. They sense I have joined them and pull over to let me speed on
by. Upward past Passaconaway Camp, the rush of sharp curves, vistas in the
periphery, rusty guard rails snake by in sharp focus. Up and over the ridge
at Kancamagus Pass and the road uncoils down into the Pemigwasset Valley
with switch backs and sweeping curves through the forest of golden red and
green. With a stolen glance I soak up the quilt of colors spread out before
me. A stop at the scenic outlook is tempting, but I press on--places to go
and people to meet.
I catch the on-ramp, ripping north on Interstate 91, joining the roar of
cars and trucks. Even this massive onward rush of concrete and steel traces
old pathways once traveled by Lafayette along the banks of the Pemigwasset
River. A slight dip into the Basin of ponds and deep woods, then the
vertical granite of Franconia Notch. Sheer gray granite lost from sight in
gray clouds far above. Down here I concentrate on gray pavement. The
interstate drops me out of the notch and I land in the village of Franconia.
Quiet streets lined with maple trees and fine old houses. I stop to ask an
elderly gent for directions. "Left at the yellow school house with white
columns, mile and a half, turn and over the bridge." I leave the pavement
behind for a crunchy gravel road winding slowly half way up the other side
of the valley, under the quilt of colors I had seen from the ridge above,
tires now muffled by a thick mat of leaves on the road less traveled.
One more turn, around the curve, and I spot the old red mail box on the
right with red letters hand painted, "R. Frost."
People to meet.
Frost was here in the 'teens and 'twenties. Now a few local folks operate
the little white farm house as a centre for the practice of poetry. I'm up
the foot path to the house and it's good to see familiar faces once again.
Keisha, Donald, Jon and the others have been doing a good job of taking care
of the place since I was here a year ago. The mason has rebuilt a stretch of
the field stone foundation, looks a lot better than the tumble-bumpin' pile
I recall. The roofer has come and gone, leaving behind a 3-tab asphalt job
that could have been better, but in that probably matches Frost's own
approach to the job in 1917-adequate to the need. As we survey the work with
a casual walk about the place the frustrations and questions of the day
arise: Do we have to get everything perfect in our zeal to restore and
preserve? Can good enough still be good enough?
John Leeke
by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:12:06 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: outhouses
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In a message dated 11/23/2002 6:22:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
> A delightful memory of the same place and same situation involved slipping
> off during one "Rest Period" after lunch on a secret hike with some chums
> and finding a lone apple tree way up the hill above the tent campsites and
> learning from an elder camper the fine art of apple-on-a stick long
> distance apple launching,
Cuyler,
I certainly never engaged in any such tomfoolery or dangerous activity when I
was a Boy Scout. And I've got the brownnosing merit badge to prove it.
No wonder you fled to Canada.
Sign me,
Goody Two Boots
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/23/2002 6:22:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">A delightful memory of the same place and same situation involved slipping off during one "Rest Period" after lunch on a secret hike with some chums and finding a lone apple tree way up the hill above the tent campsites and learning from an elder camper the fine art of apple-on-a stick long distance apple launching, </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Cuyler,<BR>
<BR>
I certainly never engaged in any such tomfoolery or dangerous activity when I was a Boy Scout. And I've got the brownnosing merit badge to prove it.<BR>
<BR>
No wonder you fled to Canada.<BR>
<BR>
Sign me,<BR>
<BR>
Goody Two Boots</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:15:29 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Compromise
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A New York preservation group, moderately preening over a victory against a=20
tower proposal within an historic district, quoted Ada Louise Huxtable to=20
its members:
=E2=80=9CThere is a critical responsibility to keep an eye unwaveringly on t=
he values=20
and quality that cannot survive compromise and to turn the spotlight on thos=
e=20
involved in compromising them...."
I had an immediate reaction: any new construction within New York's histori=
c=20
districts, under siege from a variety of preservation groups, will inevitabl=
y=20
be a compromise, and probably a far worse one that what would have originall=
y=20
been wrought.
Agree, or disagree? Christopher (PS Peter finally caught a tuna.)=20
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">A New York preservation group, moderately preening ove=
r a victory against a tower proposal within an historic district, quot=
ed </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20=
SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0"> Ada Louise Hu=
xtable to its members:</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-CO=
LOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">=
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">=E2=80=9CThere is a cr=
itical responsibility to keep an eye unwaveringly on the values and quality=20=
that cannot survive compromise and to turn the spotlight on those involved i=
n compromising them...."<BR>
<BR>
I had an immediate reaction: any new construction within New York's hi=
storic districts, under siege from a variety of preservation groups, will in=
evitably be a compromise, and probably a far worse one that what would have=20=
originally been wrought.<BR>
<BR>
Agree, or disagree? Christopher &nb=
sp; (PS Peter finally caught a tuna.) </FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:38:22 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise
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In a message dated 11/23/2002 2:15:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:
> =E2=80=9CThere is a critical responsibility to keep an eye unwaveringly on=
the=20
> values and quality that cannot survive compromise and to turn the spotligh=
t=20
> on those involved in compromising them...."
>=20
> I had an immediate reaction: any new construction within New York's=20
> historic districts, under siege from a variety of preservation groups, wil=
l=20
> inevitably be a compromise, and probably a far worse one that what would=20
> have originally been wrought.
>=20
Sorry, but I vote with Ada.
The architects are perfectly capable of working out aesthetic compromises on=
=20
their new buildings, and the developers are not going to go broke paying to=20
make the new buildings work in our cities. The preservation of our historic=
=20
patrimony (in Fitch's ringing phrase) is our responsibility on our watch.=20
Mr. Flexible
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 11/23/2002 2:15:57 PM Eastern Stand=
ard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCIT=
E style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0=
px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">=E2=80=9CThere is a critical responsibility to keep a=
n eye unwaveringly on the values and quality that cannot survive compromise=20=
and to turn the spotlight on those involved in compromising them...."<BR>
<BR>
I had an immediate reaction: any new construction within New York's hi=
storic districts, under siege from a variety of preservation groups, will in=
evitably be a compromise, and probably a far worse one that what would have=20=
originally been wrought.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
Sorry, but I vote with Ada.<BR>
<BR>
The architects are perfectly capable of working out aesthetic compromises on=
their new buildings, and the developers are not going to go broke paying to=
make the new buildings work in our cities. The preservation of our hi=
storic patrimony (in Fitch's ringing phrase) is our responsibility on our wa=
tch. <BR>
<BR>
Mr. Flexible</FONT></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:20:23 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Opportunity Knox
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Hot damn!
I finally have been invited, by one Robert Savimbi, nephew of the big cheese in Angola, to participate in one of these events. I forget whether the uncle was the gov't or the rebel, but now he (the uncle) is dead and the locals are running around like cattle without a shepherd.
This last is the nephew's phrase; I thought cattle were herded by cowboys, and shepherds tended sheep, but what do I know? (This is a rhetorical question and your negative response is not invited, but it's kind of you to offer.)
Should I invest all the pinhead dues in this? I think the deal is I get 15% of what's in a cigar box someplace, and 5% of the haul gets donated to MY favorite charity, which of course is the Pinhead Pension Fund.
Lemme know. Young Robert got my address through a directory, so he must know me very well and respect me highly, just like you guys.
Ralph
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:36:36 -0600
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: John Callan <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: John Callan, Architect, Inc.
Subject: Re: Report from the Field
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Good writing and reading, John. Not so sure "adequate" is appropriate, sounds
dangerously close to preserving some owner, architect or builder's intent,
rather than the building that actually got built. But I did enjoy the ride
accross New Hampshire.
-jc
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Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:20:31 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Lawrence Kestenbaum <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Sat, 23 Nov 2002, Met History wrote:
> "There is a critical responsibility to keep an eye unwaveringly on the
> values and quality that cannot survive compromise and to turn the
> spotlight on those involved in compromising them...."
>
> I had an immediate reaction: any new construction within New York's
> historic districts, under siege from a variety of preservation groups,
> will inevitably be a compromise, and probably a far worse one that what
> would have originally been wrought.
>
> Agree, or disagree? Christopher (PS Peter finally caught a tuna.)
Agree in part: new construction in a historic district always involves
compromises. Disagree in part: I think the developer's original
intention would usually be worse than the compromise that eventually
resulted. I don't subscribe to the Howard Roark concept of architecture.
Buildings, especially in an urban context, have to meet the needs of
multiple constituencies.
In any case, there are two different shades of the word "compromise" being
used here. ALH means "compromised" in the sense of "tainted or ruined",
as in "a woman whose reputation is compromised" or "a compromised security
system." You mean "compromise" in the sense of "a deal between factions
where each gets part of what they want."
Larry
---
Lawrence Kestenbaum, [log in to unmask]
Washtenaw County Commissioner, 4th District
The Political Graveyard, http://politicalgraveyard.com
Polygon, the Dancing Bear, http://potifos.com/polygon
Mailing address: P.O. Box 2563, Ann Arbor MI 48106
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:43:41 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise
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In a message dated 11/24/2002 10:21:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
> Agree in part: new construction in a historic district always involves
> compromises. Disagree in part: I think the developer's original
> intention would usually be worse than the compromise that eventually
> resulted. I don't subscribe to the Howard Roark concept of architecture.
> Buildings, especially in an urban context, have to meet the needs of
> multiple constituencies.
>
> In any case, there are two different shades of the word "compromise" being
> used here. ALH means "compromised" in the sense of "tainted or ruined",
> as in "a woman whose reputation is compromised" or "a compromised security
> system." You mean "compromise" in the sense of "a deal between factions
> where each gets part of what they want."
>
Right on, brotha.
Ralph
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/24/2002 10:21:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Agree in part: new construction in a historic district always involves<BR>
compromises. Disagree in part: I think the developer's original<BR>
intention would usually be worse than the compromise that eventually<BR>
resulted. I don't subscribe to the Howard Roark concept of architecture.<BR>
Buildings, especially in an urban context, have to meet the needs of<BR>
multiple constituencies.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, there are two different shades of the word "compromise" being<BR>
used here. ALH means "compromised" in the sense of "tainted or ruined",<BR>
as in "a woman whose reputation is compromised" or "a compromised security<BR>
system." You mean "compromise" in the sense of "a deal between factions<BR>
where each gets part of what they want."<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Right on, brotha.<BR>
<BR>
Ralph</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:19:10 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise
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In a message dated 11/24/02 10:21:29 AM, [log in to unmask] writes:
> Buildings, especially in an urban context, have to meet the needs of
> multiple constituencies.
Did our earlier buildings - the Chrysler Building, rowhouses, 1920's
apartment buildings - meet "multiple constituencies" more than the corollary
buildings of the present day? How?
Christopher
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/24/02 10:21:29 AM, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Buildings, especially in an urban context, have to meet the needs of multiple constituencies.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Did our earlier buildings - the Chrysler Building, rowhouses, 1920's apartment buildings - meet "multiple constituencies" more than the corollary buildings of the present day? How?<BR>
<BR>
Christopher </FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:56:57 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise WWHD? (What Would Howard Do?)
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In a message dated 11/24/02 10:21:29 AM, [log in to unmask] writes:
> Agree in part: new construction in a historic district always involves
> compromises. Disagree in part: I think the developer's original intention
> would usually be worse than the compromise that eventually resulted.
I am thinking not about what "would" happen, but what has happened, at least
in New York City. I'm thinking of new construction in historic districts in
New York in the last decade or so. The addition to the Jewish Museum; the
new "neo-Renaissance" cast-limestone 10 story apartment building in back of
838 Fifth Avenue [the "love thy neighbor" building]; the new "neo-Georgian"
apartment house at 52 East 72nd Street [for which a neat little Morris
Lapidus building was demolished]. They are all ... tepid, at best. At
very best. And this at a time of rather adventurous architecture outside of
historic districts, even by speculative builders, like the last 10 years of
towers around Lincoln Center by Costas Kondylis and others - just regular
guys, not archi-stars.
I don't think you need to "subscribe to the Howard Roark theory of
architecture" to hold the opinion that, the thicker the bureaucracy, the more
finely minced is the artistic impulse.
Read also the battle-statements made by the non-profit preservation groups
involved in such discussions - they show little evidence of connoisseurship
or real architectural concerns - they are simply about bulk, shadows, views
of existing tenancies, construction noise. In such an environment, could even
Howard have a chance?
Best, Christopher
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/24/02 10:21:29 AM, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Agree in part: new construction in a historic district always involves compromises. Disagree in part: I think the developer's original intention would usually be worse than the compromise that eventually resulted. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0"><BR>
I am thinking not about what "would" happen, but what has happened, at least in New York City. I'm thinking of new construction in historic districts in New York in the last decade or so. The addition to the Jewish Museum; the new "neo-Renaissance" cast-limestone 10 story apartment building in back of 838 Fifth Avenue [the "love thy neighbor" building]; the new "neo-Georgian" apartment house at 52 East 72nd Street [for which a neat little Morris Lapidus building was demolished]. They are all ... tepid, at best. At very best. And this at a time of rather adventurous architecture outside of historic districts, even by speculative builders, like the last 10 years of towers around Lincoln Center by Costas Kondylis and others - just regular guys, not archi-stars. <BR>
<BR>
I don't think you need to "subscribe to the Howard Roark theory of architecture" to hold the opinion that, the thicker the bureaucracy, the more finely minced is the artistic impulse.<BR>
<BR>
Read also the battle-statements made by the non-profit preservation groups involved in such discussions - they show little evidence of connoisseurship or real architectural concerns - they are simply about bulk, shadows, views of existing tenancies, construction noise. In such an environment, could even Howard have a chance? <BR>
<BR>
Best, Christopher </FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:19:21 GMT
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Nate Gillette <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: WWHD?
Christopher wrote:
<just regular guys, not archi-stars.
Hey you misspelled that, that should be star-chitects. 8>)
Nate Gillette
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:30:38 -0500
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
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From: "Becker, Dan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise WWHD? (What Would Howard Do?)
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Met History
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 11:57 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Compromise WWHD? (What Would Howard Do?)
>=20
>=20
> I don't think you need to "subscribe to the Howard Roark=20
> theory of architecture" to hold the opinion that, the thicker=20
> the bureaucracy, the more finely minced is the artistic impulse.
This is a matter of community "preservation personality" and the
leadership that exists in the community. One can subscribe to many
different philosophies as to what approach to take toward new
construction in historic districts. As a public servant, I am acutely
aware that I am here to serve the citizens' desires for what they would
like to receive from the preservation program provided on their behalf.
The way I administer a program in Raleigh would be different from how I
would administer a program in another community. I would have to take my
cues from that community.=20
Here in Raleigh, we do not have a "museums" approach toward the
preservation of our properties and districts. If we were to impose
strict preservation/restoration standards across the board, we would
face insurrection and rebellion. Here, we view our work as a shaping of
the evolution of the districts, but recognize that each generation will
leave its imprint on the resources. They were handed down to us through
the lassez faire actions of preceding generations and the accretion of
their decisions; this begs the question as to why we should suddenly
need to freeze-frame them in a sterile cocoon of changeless suspension.
Very few resources here would warrant that kind of strict
interpretation.
Likewise, with new construction, we prefer that it should reflect its
own time period, but do so in a respectful manner toward the context.
Again, the design review process here, as governed by state statute that
states "the commission shall take no action except to prevent that which
is incongruous with the special character of the historic resource or
the historic district." This is not the make-it-the-best-it-can-be
process, it is the prevent-bad-things-from-happening process. We have
some tepid, unimaginative, derivative new construction, that mimics the
historic styles; we can't deny that, even if we would prefer something
else, as it is pretty difficult to say that something that looks exactly
like what is around it is incongruous. But we also have some pretty
exciting contemporary new construction in our historic districts. It
depends a great deal upon what the designer brings us, and it depends a
great deal on how adventurous the client is.
Denise Scott-Brown, no fan of design regulations, has stated: "If you
want good design, hire good designers." Dan Becker's corollary to that
is: "Design guidelines are containment facilities for bad designers." A
design review body can only work with what is placed before it. It is
the personality of the community that influences the kinds of proposals
that are presented, and it equally influences how the design review body
evaluates the proposals.
I believe that communities that have a lot of conflict in their historic
preservation programs have a preservation commission that is out of step
with their constituency's "preservation personality." They have set a
preservation standard that is substantially higher than the lay public's
view of what is reasonable. This is regulation by zealots, not
regulation on behalf of the citizenry. If you don't believe that people
"get it," it is a painful route to take to force them to submit through
regulation, as opposed to instituting a good educational program in
partnership with your historic resource stewards to raise their
understanding of why it might be better to do it "our" way. Then, they
will start to bring you better proposals.
We waste a lot of good-will capital going to the mat over what are
ultimately really inconsequential small details, which the reality is
will only make a difference in the lives of a few academic researchers
in 50-100 years. They are meaningless to the people that have to use the
buildings in their daily lives. I'd like to preserve the good experience
of buildings with human scale that have associative meaning to folks;
every building in a historic district is not worthy of a microfine
museum level of conservation of every scrap of stuff for "what it may
tell us in the future." Most of us are going to be too busy in the
future to ask.=20
Choose carefully the buildings and areas to preserve as monuments; let
the rest live.
______________________________________________________
Dan Becker, Exec. Dir. "Let us, while waiting for=20
Raleigh Historic new monuments preserve=20
Districts Commission the ancient monuments."
[log in to unmask] -- Victor Hugo =20
919/890-3678
=20
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:34:56 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Lawrence Kestenbaum <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise
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On Sun, 24 Nov 2002, Met History wrote:
> > Buildings, especially in an urban context, have to meet the needs of
> > multiple constituencies.
>
> Did our earlier buildings - the Chrysler Building, rowhouses, 1920's
> apartment buildings - meet "multiple constituencies" more than the corollary
> buildings of the present day? How?
Christopher Alexander has an answer for this which I don't have handy to
quote, but the gist of it is that, in the old days, architecture happened
within a context of shared values and expectations which no longer
obtains. Lacking that, the best we can do for our historic districts is
the bureaucratic solution.
The Chrysler Building and many of the other achievements of the 20th
century happened at a time of the breaking down of those shared values, a
crisis time that was both exciting and abusive. I'm not suggesting that
historic districts need to be locked in time, but they do need to be
protected from the "revolution". Grafitti may be artistic and modern and
has its place, but I'd rather not have it scrawled across the facades of
my favorite buildings.
Larry
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The Political Graveyard, http://politicalgraveyard.com
Mailing address: P.O. Box 2563, Ann Arbor MI 48106
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:04:04 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Lawrence Kestenbaum <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise WWHD? (What Would Howard Do?)
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On Sun, 24 Nov 2002, Met History wrote:
> I am thinking not about what "would" happen, but what has happened, at least
> in New York City. I'm thinking of new construction in historic districts in
> New York in the last decade or so. The addition to the Jewish Museum; the
> new "neo-Renaissance" cast-limestone 10 story apartment building in back of
> 838 Fifth Avenue [the "love thy neighbor" building]; the new "neo-Georgian"
> apartment house at 52 East 72nd Street [for which a neat little Morris
> Lapidus building was demolished]. They are all ... tepid, at best. At
> very best. And this at a time of rather adventurous architecture outside of
> historic districts, even by speculative builders, like the last 10 years of
> towers around Lincoln Center by Costas Kondylis and others - just regular
> guys, not archi-stars.
The only one of those I have seen is the addition to the Jewish Museum,
which we have argued about before. Since your view of that one project is
so utterly at variance with mine, I doubt we'd agree on the others you
mention.
> I don't think you need to "subscribe to the Howard Roark theory of
> architecture" to hold the opinion that, the thicker the bureaucracy, the more
> finely minced is the artistic impulse.
Perhaps it can't be taken to extremes, but in my experience, constraints
force architects to produce better work. Every time I have rejected an
architect's proposal for a new building, the architect has come back with
something better, usually, a whole lot better. The architecture
profession has a lot of rhetoric about how every site is unique, but in
practice you don't get a building uniquely well-adapted to the site unless
you enforce unique constraints.
> Read also the battle-statements made by the non-profit preservation groups
> involved in such discussions - they show little evidence of connoisseurship
> or real architectural concerns - they are simply about bulk, shadows, views
> of existing tenancies, construction noise.
I am surprised you would expect anything else.
> In such an environment, could even Howard have a chance?
If Howard can't deal with bulk, shadows, views, and noise, he's not worthy
of being an architect.
Larry
---
Lawrence Kestenbaum, [log in to unmask]
The Political Graveyard, http://politicalgraveyard.com
Mailing address: P.O. Box 2563, Ann Arbor MI 48106
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:37:32 -0500
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From: "J.A. Drew Diaz" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: EDGE
Subject: Re: WWHD?
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Nate Gillette wrote:
> star-chitects.
Outstanding-
Andrew Vach's latest features a minor character-
a kid with a WWMD tatoo- What Would Manson Do
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note;quoted-printable:It's a heck of a world when an all American boy =0D=0Acan't carry a pocketknife.=0D=0A
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:23:08 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise WWHD? (What Would Howard Do?)
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In a message dated 11/25/2002 11:15:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
>
> Perhaps it can't be taken to extremes, but in my experience, constraints
> force architects to produce better work. I am inclined to agree with the
> distinguished gentleman from Michigan or Wisconsin or wherever it is. Every
> time I have rejected an architect's proposal for a new building, the
> architect has come back with something better, usually, a whole lot better.
> The architecture
> profession has a lot of rhetoric about how every site is unique, but in
> practice you don't get a building uniquely well-adapted to the site unless
> you enforce unique constraints. Yep.
>
> > Read also the battle-statements made by the non-profit preservation
> groups
> > involved in such discussions - they show little evidence of connoisseu
> rship
> > or real architectural concerns - they are simply about bulk, shadows,
> views
> > of existing tenancies, construction noise.
>
> I am surprised you would expect anything else.
This stuff is about all that can be quantified objectively, as opposed to "it
looks like shit," which may also be true.
>
> > In such an environment, could even Howard have a chance?
>
> If Howard can't deal with bulk, shadows, views, and noise, he's not worthy
> of being an architect. Or becoming a fictional character, except as a bad
> example.
Mr. Flexible
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/25/2002 11:15:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
Perhaps it can't be taken to extremes, but in my experience, constraints<BR>
force architects to produce better work. <B>I am inclined to agree with the distinguished gentleman from Michigan or Wisconsin or wherever it is.</B> Every time I have rejected an architect's proposal for a new building, the architect has come back with something better, usually, a whole lot better. The architecture<BR>
profession has a lot of rhetoric about how every site is unique, but in<BR>
practice you don't get a building uniquely well-adapted to the site unless<BR>
you enforce unique constraints. <B>Yep.</B><BR>
<BR>
> Read also the battle-statements made by the non-profit preservation groups<BR>
> involved in such discussions - they show little evidence of connoisseurship<BR>
> or real architectural concerns - they are simply about bulk, shadows, views<BR>
> of existing tenancies, construction noise.<BR>
<BR>
I am surprised you would expect anything else.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B>This stuff is about all that can be quantified objectively, as opposed to "it looks like shit," which may also be true.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
> In such an environment, could even Howard have a chance?<BR>
<BR>
If Howard can't deal with bulk, shadows, views, and noise, he's not worthy<BR>
of being an architect. <B>Or becoming a fictional character, except as a bad example.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B>Mr. Flexible</B><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:27:16 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Ken Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 3 Jakes
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I always wondered about the sound effects in that jake-place.
And there was Betsy Parker, an ominous rumbling overhead like the cumulus of
a cattle run that would often interrupt our sedentary Bible studies.
][<en
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I always wondered about the sound effects in that jake-place.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
And there was Betsy Parker, an ominous rumbling overhead like the cumulus of a cattle run that would often interrupt our sedentary Bible studies.<BR>
<BR>
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:29:30 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Ken Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: outhouses
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fine art of apple-on-a stick long distance apple launching
Oh my... I was getting pretty good at this until one day from about 50 yards
I hit my brother square in the right eye with a small green apple. One of
those things we don't forget.
][<en
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">fine art of apple-on-a stick long distance apple launching</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
Oh my... I was getting pretty good at this until one day from about 50 yards I hit my brother square in the right eye with a small green apple. One of those things we don't forget.<BR>
<BR>
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:31:04 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Ken Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 3 Jakes
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So where did you post this photo for us to see now that we have all been
tempted.
Bill,
1) In Arizona where he left it on the wall.
2) The image now lingering in our mind's eye.
3) Can you build us another so we can take pictures?
][<en
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">So where did you post this photo for us to see now that we have all been tempted.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Bill,<BR>
<BR>
1) In Arizona where he left it on the wall.<BR>
2) The image now lingering in our mind's eye.<BR>
3) Can you build us another so we can take pictures?<BR>
<BR>
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:36:27 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Ken Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Report from the Field
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Up with the sun and a peek out the window.
Nice story.... more please.
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Up with the sun and a peek out the window. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Nice story.... more please.<BR>
<BR>
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:10:42 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Ken Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: WWHD?
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Hey you misspelled that, that should be star-chitects. 8>)
Depends on which side of the butter you plate is on.
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hey you misspelled that, that should be star-chitects. 8>)<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
Depends on which side of the butter you plate is on.<BR>
<BR>
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:22:09 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Ken Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise
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any new construction within New York's historic districts, under siege from a
variety of preservation groups, will inevitably be a compromise, and probably
a far worse one that what would have originally been wrought.
Sharpshooter,
You got a point. What is the story something like if God had built the
elephant by committee consensus then it would look more like an aardvark?
I don't think anything worthwhile comes from trying to satisfy everyone. I
heard Al Gore on NPR interviewed last week talking about how now he is not
running he can say what he thinks, and he said it. I was wondering why he
never spoke what he thought for real before now, that is, without opinion
polls to guide his words.
Then again, I think if there is not a pressure and acknowledgement on the
part of the design professional to be sensitive to existing fabric we can
quickly end up with all sorts of abominations. Bad design is bad design
regardless of what anyone says or thinks about it. Mr. Stern from what I have
heard him say seems inclined to preserve historic fabric by removing it or
swallowing it up in new design.
As to Ada Louise Huxtable's quote I think it runs a bit to daft. We should
worry about little nit picky things because if we don't then who will?
Quality and compromise are subjective. It does not help that histo presto be
perceived as a pedantic pursuit of the unsurvivable and trivial detail of a
lost ancestry that nobody really wants to be bothered with.
Persistence of compromise leads to cheese that tastes like bland putty and
beer that never rises above water. Which leads me to wonder, kicking a bit of
dirt with my shoes here, is compromise of the built-environment possible
without free-market capitalism?
][<en
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">any new construction within New York's historic districts, under siege from a variety of preservation groups, will inevitably be a compromise, and probably a far worse one that what would have originally been wrought.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
Sharpshooter,<BR>
<BR>
You got a point. What is the story something like if God had built the elephant by committee consensus then it would look more like an aardvark? <BR>
<BR>
I don't think anything worthwhile comes from trying to satisfy everyone. I heard Al Gore on NPR interviewed last week talking about how now he is not running he can say what he thinks, and he said it. I was wondering why he never spoke what he thought for real before now, that is, without opinion polls to guide his words. <BR>
<BR>
Then again, I think if there is not a pressure and acknowledgement on the part of the design professional to be sensitive to existing fabric we can quickly end up with all sorts of abominations. Bad design is bad design regardless of what anyone says or thinks about it. Mr. Stern from what I have heard him say seems inclined to preserve historic fabric by removing it or swallowing it up in new design. <BR>
<BR>
As to Ada Louise Huxtable's quote I think it runs a bit to daft. We should worry about little nit picky things because if we don't then who will? Quality and compromise are subjective. It does not help that histo presto be perceived as a pedantic pursuit of the unsurvivable and trivial detail of a lost ancestry that nobody really wants to be bothered with.<BR>
<BR>
Persistence of compromise leads to cheese that tastes like bland putty and beer that never rises above water. Which leads me to wonder, kicking a bit of dirt with my shoes here, is compromise of the built-environment possible without free-market capitalism?<BR>
<BR>
][<en</FONT></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:22:13 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ken Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise WWHD? (What Would Howard Do?)
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Choose carefully the buildings and areas to preserve as monuments; let
the rest live.
Dan,
I'm with you on all this, a real fine statement.
][<en
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Choose carefully the buildings and areas to preserve as monuments; let<BR>
the rest live.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
Dan,<BR>
<BR>
I'm with you on all this, a real fine statement.<BR>
<BR>
][<en<BR>
<BR>
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:22:13 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ken Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise
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Grafitti may be artistic and modern and has its place, but I'd rather not
have it scrawled across the facades of my favorite buildings.
So I find out this weekend that one way in which to change the course of an
asteroid hurtling towards earth is to go out and spray paint one side of it
with aluminum paint so that the radiation of the sun will push it off
course... so don't go knocking the grafitti urchins... we may be needing them
real real soon. Talk about preservation... save the friggin' planet, man!
][<en
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Grafitti may be artistic and modern and has its place, but I'd rather not have it scrawled across the facades of my favorite buildings.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
So I find out this weekend that one way in which to change the course of an asteroid hurtling towards earth is to go out and spray paint one side of it with aluminum paint so that the radiation of the sun will push it off course... so don't go knocking the grafitti urchins... we may be needing them real real soon. Talk about preservation... save the friggin' planet, man!<BR>
<BR>
][<en<BR>
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:56:43 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Becker, Dan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Follett
> Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 3:22 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Compromise
>=20
>=20
> I don't think anything worthwhile comes from trying to=20
> satisfy everyone.=20
My primary tenet of successful planning is that no plan can ever satisfy
everyone; the most successful plan is one that has upset everyone
equally, so that no one feels that someone got the advantage over them.=20
Successful compromise shares the pain equally.
_____________________________________________________
Dan Becker, Exec. Dir. "Conformists die, but
Raleigh Historic heretics live on forever"
Districts Commission -- Elbert Hubbard
[log in to unmask] =20
919/890-3678
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:10:00 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Cross-posting from GoNogUrSelf.Org....
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Subj: Mud Brick Nogging =20
Date: 11/25/02 3:33:45 PM Eastern Standard Time =20
From:=A0 =A0 [log in to unmask] (Daniel H. Weiskotten)
Reply-to: <A HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
.GOV</A> (A LISTSERV list for discussions=20
pertaining to New York State=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 history.)
Hello All:
No, Mud Brick Nogging is not about some wickedly fun redneck sport.
I've scanned and posted photos of an example of unfired mud brick nogging
(infill between timbers and studs) that I saw in an abandoned house in
Washington County, NY.=A0 I've written up a little report and included two
links to other information on the use of mud brick as nogging: one on the
Amana Colonies in Iowa, another an article from CRM, No. 6, 1999.
I've seen several examples of actual fired brick used as nogging in 19th
century buildings in upstate NY, but this is the only case of actual
unfired mud brock that I've seen.=A0 I am told that some has been found in a=
n
archaeological excavation of an old house site in Auburn and the CRM
article mentions its use in western NY.=A0 I'd like to know more about its
use, temporal and spatial distribution, etc.
The photos are worth the wait in loading, so be patient.=A0 Why didn't
someone tell me what a pain it is to scan slides?
http://users.erols.com/weiskotten/MudBrickNogging.html
Dan W.
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subj: <B>Mud Brick Nogg=
ing</B> =20
<BR>Date: 11/25/02 3:33:45 PM Eastern Standard Time =20
<BR>From:=A0 =A0 [log in to unmask] (Daniel H. Weiskotten)
<BR>Reply-to: <A HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
YSED.GOV</A> (A LISTSERV list for discussions pertaining to New York State=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 history.)
<BR>
<BR>Hello All:
<BR>
<BR>No, Mud Brick Nogging is not about some wickedly fun redneck sport.
<BR>
<BR>I've scanned and posted photos of an example of unfired mud brick noggin=
g
<BR>(infill between timbers and studs) that I saw in an abandoned house in
<BR>Washington County, NY.=A0 I've written up a little report and included t=
wo
<BR>links to other information on the use of mud brick as nogging: one on th=
e
<BR>Amana Colonies in Iowa, another an article from CRM, No. 6, 1999.
<BR>
<BR>I've seen several examples of actual fired brick used as nogging in 19th
<BR>century buildings in upstate NY, but this is the only case of actual
<BR>unfired mud brock that I've seen.=A0 I am told that some has been found=20=
in an
<BR>archaeological excavation of an old house site in Auburn and the CRM
<BR>article mentions its use in western NY.=A0 I'd like to know more about i=
ts
<BR>use, temporal and spatial distribution, etc.
<BR>
<BR>The photos are worth the wait in loading, so be patient.=A0 Why didn't
<BR>someone tell me what a pain it is to scan slides?
<BR>
<BR>http://users.erols.com/weiskotten/MudBrickNogging.html
<BR>
<BR>Dan W.
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:16:07 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Hey, wait a minute, how can a "one-liner" be double-spaced?
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In a message Ayn Rand Time, [log in to unmask] writes:
> My primary tenet of successful planning is that no plan can ever satisfy
> everyone; the most successful plan is one that has upset everyone
> equally, so that no one feels that someone got the advantage over them.
>
I don't recall "everyone equally" getting upset about Grand Central Terminal,
or the Pitti Palace, or St. Peter's Square or the Boston Public Library.
Only about Ralph recklessly double- and triple-spacing his one-liners.
Christopher
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">In a message Ayn Rand Time, [log in to unmask] writes:
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">My primary tenet of successful planning is that no plan can ever satisfy
<BR>everyone; the most successful plan is one that has upset everyone
<BR>equally, so that no one feels that someone got the advantage over them.
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>I don't recall "everyone equally" getting upset about Grand Central Terminal, or the Pitti Palace, or St. Peter's Square or the Boston Public Library. Only about Ralph recklessly double- and triple-spacing his one-liners. Christopher
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:17:50 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Hey, Far-From-Yukon Guy, you think they're a pair of hoot owls?
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Subj: cemetery gate =20
Date: 11/25/02 3:45:31 PM Eastern Standard Time =20
From:=A0 =A0 [log in to unmask] (Harold Miller)
Reply-to: <A HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
com.mx</A>
To:=A0 =A0 [log in to unmask]
The Berne Historical Project at www.Bernehistory.org has a project underway
to restore the late 18th Century Pine Grove Cemetery, Berne, Albany County.
It was a small, rural, church cemetery that continued in use for almost a
century. A couple of youngsters who were probing for fallen and covered over
tombstones found what appear to be the base stones for a pedestrian gate. At
first they were assumed to be tombstone bases, but no tombstones were found.
Also these stones are roughly parallel the east west road-frontage, about
the distance back from the road that a fence would be; where as the
tombstones all face east, so the bases are north south.
The stones are oblong, large, and heavy, laying inches apart placed end to
end. They each have 2 circular holes about 18" apart and about 1 and 1/2 "
wide. One of the holes has the broken off stub off a rusted iron rod
embedded in it. They are crudely cut, rather then finished stone.
Here is there symbolic appearance:
=A0 =A0 [=A0 o=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 o=A0 ]=A0 =A0 [=A0 o=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 o=A0 ]
It is assumed that they were found in their original location. If so, the
gate would have been quite narrow. It has been proposed that the gate was
designed with 4 posts tied together at the top but not necessarily with an
arch. Two of the posts probably supported a latched gate to keep livestock
out of the cemetery the other two braced the gateway from tipping and
leaning.
I'm interested in what others might make of these stones. If it was a gate,
does anyone have photos of cemetery gates of this size that might give us an
idea of what it looked like?
I can e-mail digital photos of the stones and the context in which they were
found if anyone is interested.
Harold Miller
Berne Historical Project www.Bernehistory.org
Please reply to [log in to unmask] rather than this address.
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subj: <B>cemetery gate<=
/B> =20
<BR>Date: 11/25/02 3:45:31 PM Eastern Standard Time =20
<BR>From:=A0 =A0 [log in to unmask] (Harold Miller)
<BR>Reply-to: <A HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">halned@spersaoax=
aca.com.mx</A>
<BR>To:=A0 =A0 [log in to unmask]
<BR>
<BR>The Berne Historical Project at www.Bernehistory.org has a project under=
way
<BR>to restore the late 18th Century Pine Grove Cemetery, Berne, Albany Coun=
ty.
<BR>It was a small, rural, church cemetery that continued in use for almost=20=
a
<BR>century. A couple of youngsters who were probing for fallen and covered=20=
over
<BR>tombstones found what appear to be the base stones for a pedestrian gate=
. At
<BR>first they were assumed to be tombstone bases, but no tombstones were fo=
und.
<BR>Also these stones are roughly parallel the east west road-frontage, abou=
t
<BR>the distance back from the road that a fence would be; where as the
<BR>tombstones all face east, so the bases are north south.
<BR>
<BR>The stones are oblong, large, and heavy, laying inches apart placed end=20=
to
<BR>end. They each have 2 circular holes about 18" apart and about 1 and 1/2=
"
<BR>wide. One of the holes has the broken off stub off a rusted iron rod
<BR>embedded in it. They are crudely cut, rather then finished stone.
<BR>
<BR>Here is there symbolic appearance:
<BR>
<BR>=A0 =A0 [=A0 o=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 o=A0 ]=A0 =A0 [=A0 o=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 o=A0 ]
<BR>
<BR>It is assumed that they were found in their original location. If so, th=
e
<BR>gate would have been quite narrow. It has been proposed that the gate wa=
s
<BR>designed with 4 posts tied together at the top but not necessarily with=20=
an
<BR>arch. Two of the posts probably supported a latched gate to keep livesto=
ck
<BR>out of the cemetery the other two braced the gateway from tipping and
<BR>leaning.
<BR>
<BR>I'm interested in what others might make of these stones. If it was a ga=
te,
<BR>does anyone have photos of cemetery gates of this size that might give u=
s an
<BR>idea of what it looked like?
<BR>
<BR>I can e-mail digital photos of the stones and the context in which they=20=
were
<BR>found if anyone is interested.
<BR>
<BR>Harold Miller
<BR>Berne Historical Project www.Bernehistory.org
<BR>
<BR>Please reply to [log in to unmask] rather than this address.</FO=
NT></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:35:44 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Becker, Dan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hey, wait a minute, how can a "one-liner" be double-spaced?
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=20
-----Original Message-----
From: make easy -- get sakcrete
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Met
History
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 4:16 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Hey, wait a minute, how can a "one-liner" be double-spaced?
In a message Ayn Rand Time, [log in to unmask] writes:=20
My primary tenet of successful planning is that no plan can ever satisfy
everyone; the most successful plan is one that has upset everyone=20
equally, so that no one feels that someone got the advantage over them.=20
I don't recall "everyone equally" getting upset about Grand Central
Terminal, or the Pitti Palace, or St. Peter's Square or the Boston
Public Library. Only about Ralph recklessly double- and triple-spacing
his one-liners. Christopher=20
=20
You are quite right...those were lousy plans that were not successful
=20
And neither is html in email.
_____________________________________________________
Dan Becker, Exec. Dir. "Conformists die, but
Raleigh Historic heretics live on forever"
Districts Commission -- Elbert Hubbard
[log in to unmask]
919/890-3678=20
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2713.1100" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> make =
easy -- get=20
sakcrete [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <B>On =
Behalf Of=20
</B>Met History<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 25, 2002 4:16=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> =
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
Hey, wait a minute, how can a "one-liner" be=20
double-spaced?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
lang=3D0=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SERIF">In a message Ayn =
Rand Time,=20
[log in to unmask]H.NC.US writes: <BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
TYPE=3D"CITE">My primary tenet of successful planning is that no plan =
can ever=20
satisfy <BR>everyone; the most successful plan is one that has upset =
everyone <BR>equally, so that no one feels that someone got the =
advantage=20
over them. <BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">
<DIV><BR>I don't recall "everyone equally" getting upset about Grand =
Central=20
Terminal, or the Pitti Palace, or St. Peter's Square or the Boston =
Public=20
Library. Only about Ralph recklessly double- and triple-spacing =
his=20
one-liners.=20
Christopher <BR><SPAN=20
class=3D539113321-25112002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D539113321-25112002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>You are quite right...those were lousy plans that were not=20
successful</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D539113321-25112002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D539113321-25112002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>And neither is html in email.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D539113321-25112002><FONT=20
size=3D2>_____________________________________________________<BR>Dan=20
Becker, Exec. Dir. "Conformists die, =
but<BR>Raleigh=20
Historic  =
;=20
heretics live on forever"<BR>Districts=20
Commission &nb=
sp; =20
-- Elbert Hubbard<BR>[log in to unmask] <BR>919/890-3678</FONT>=20
</DIV></SPAN></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:16:38 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Hey, buster, you should talk, you're the one with the funny ...
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In a message dated 11/25/02 4:36:30 PM , [log in to unmask] writes:
> You are quite right...those were lousy plans that were not successful. And
> neither is html in email.
> ____________________________________________________
> Dan Becker, Exec. Dir.
..blue writing!! Sign me, Depressed Modern
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/25/02 4:36:30 PM , [log in to unmask] writes:
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="FIXED" FACE="Courier New" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">You are quite right...those were lousy plans that were not successful.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="FIXED" FACE="Courier New" LANG="0"> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="FIXED" FACE="Courier New" LANG="0">And neither is html in email.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="FIXED" FACE="Courier New" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="FIXED" FACE="Courier New" LANG="0">____________________________________________________
<BR>Dan Becker, Exec. Dir. </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="FIXED" FACE="Courier New" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">
<BR>..blue writing!! Sign me, Depressed Modern</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:02:08 -0500
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From: "Becker, Dan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hey, buster, you should talk,
you're the one with the funny ...
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Met History
> Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 5:17 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Hey, buster, you should talk, you're the one with=20
> the funny ...
>=20
>=20
> ..blue writing!! Sign me, Depressed Modern=20
Thanks to the hegemony of Microsoft....
___________________________________________________
Dan Becker, Exec. Dir. "What's this? Fan mail
Raleigh Historic from some flounder?"
Districts Commission - Bullwinkle J. Moose
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:52:22 -0500
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From: William Gould <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 3 Jakes
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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on 11/25/02 2:31 PM, Ken Follett at [log in to unmask] wrote:
So where did you post this photo for us to see now that we have all been
tempted.
Bill,
1) In Arizona where he left it on the wall.
2) The image now lingering in our mind's eye.
3) Can you build us another so we can take pictures?
][<en
Sure Ken, I could build you anything you like. I'm not sure the building
official would approve however. Probably would not be fly proof.
Twenty years or so ago I used to frequent northern Maine. I would go up to
Oxbow, Marsardis, Presque Isle, Caribou, etc.. North of Patten on route 11,
in downtown Marsardis was a large store front with a hall on the second
floor that could be rented for functions. I did not attend any but my
friend from the area, who played in a band, did gigs there from time to
time. At the rear of the hall, a large room say 35 x 60 were ladies and
gents facilities. From the exterior, the facilities looked like and
enclosed porch supported by braces from the rear of the building. There was
one exception, there was flooring on only the portion of the porch closest
to the rear of the building. Obviously, it was a privy and the dirt parking
lot the depository. One had to be careful where they parked there car and
always check on the wind direction. Winters are cold in Maine so things can
freeze quickly. I was never there the day after an event so I have no
comment. I do wonder if the building exists along with the enclosed porch.
You will have to create this image in you minds eye too. Unfortunately, no
photos.
Bill
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: 3 Jakes</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
on 11/25/02 2:31 PM, Ken Follett at [log in to unmask] wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">So where did you post this ph=
oto for us to see now that we have all been tempted.<BR>
</FONT></FONT><BR>
<BR>
Bill,<BR>
<BR>
1) In Arizona where he left it on the =
wall.<BR>
2) The image now lingering in our mind=
's eye.<BR>
3) Can you build us another so we can =
take pictures?<BR>
<BR>
][<en <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
Sure Ken, I could build you anything you like. I'm not sure the build=
ing official would approve however. Probably would not be fly proof.<B=
R>
<BR>
Twenty years or so ago I used to frequent northern Maine. I would go =
up to Oxbow, Marsardis, Presque Isle, Caribou, etc.. North of Patten o=
n route 11, in downtown Marsardis was a large store front with a hall on the=
second floor that could be rented for functions. I did not attend any=
but my friend from the area, who played in a band, did gigs there from time=
to time. At the rear of the hall, a large room say 35 x 60 were ladie=
s and gents facilities. From the exterior, the facilities looked like =
and enclosed porch supported by braces from the rear of the building. =
There was one exception, there was flooring on only the portion of the porch=
closest to the rear of the building. Obviously, it was a privy and th=
e dirt parking lot the depository. One had to be careful where t=
hey parked there car and always check on the wind direction. Winters a=
re cold in Maine so things can freeze quickly. I was never there the d=
ay after an event so I have no comment. I do wonder if the building ex=
ists along with the enclosed porch. You will have to create this image=
in you minds eye too. Unfortunately, no photos.<BR>
<BR>
Bill<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:15:21 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: outhouses
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In a message dated 11/25/2002 2:29:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:
> Oh my... I was getting pretty good at this until one day from about 50 yards I hit my brother square in the right eye
> with a small green apple. One of those things we don't forget.
Yeah, well, mah Momma claims she threw a drawing compass at one of her classmates and it stuck the other girl the head just above her eye. Guess my mom was pissed, or the south Georgia equivalent in the early 1930's.
Ralph
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:20:03 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 3 Jakes
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In a message dated 11/25/2002 2:31:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:
> 3) Can you build us another so we can take pictures?
If he built another, you could take more than pictures. Which reminds me, in the Times this morning, there was a story about some guy who invented a new way to mount turkey beards, and one of thge things it mentioned was that adolescent male turkeys (which presumably have dicks like other boy birds, but the Times didn't mention THAT) are called.....you guessed it: jakes!
My question is, how many other things in the world are called Jakes?
Ralph
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:22:53 -0500
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From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise
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In a message dated 11/25/2002 3:22:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:
> so don't go knocking the grafitti urchins... we may be
> needing them real real soon.
The hell with 'em. Let's send them to the asteroids, and let them paint 'em. But in the meantime, they can hit all of Chris' fabulous new buildings, instead of our nice old ones.
Ralph
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:24:30 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise
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In a message dated 11/25/2002 3:22:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:
> Which leads me to wonder, kicking a bit of dirt with my shoes here, is compromise of the built-environment possible
> without free-market capitalism?
Yeah sure. The Commies (or were those the Comos?) did a great job prserving the environment without capitalism.
Ralph
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:29:53 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hey, wait a minute, how can a "one-liner" be double-spaced?
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In a message dated 11/25/2002 4:16:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:
> Only about Ralph recklessly double- and triple-spacing his
> one-liners.
Somehow, I had a feeling from the header that this was going to be another of Chrif' nasty cracks.
Boo Who?
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:52:30 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 3 Jakes
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In a message dated 11/25/2002 8:52:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:
> You will have to create this image in you minds eye too.
Not in MY mind's eye, I don't.
Sign me,
Eyes Wide Shut
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:44:42 -0500
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From: "J.A. Drew Diaz" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: EDGE
Subject: Re: WWJD
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any one who has a chance should find today's
Mike Peters [ of Mother Goose & Grim fame]
political Cartoon in re SUVs and WWJD.
DD
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tel;cell:917.971.1577
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x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://edgedc.com/
org:EDGE Development Construction
version:2.1
email;internet:[log in to unmask]
adr;quoted-printable:;;Suite 1205=0D=0A150 W 28th St;NY;NY;10001;http://edgedc.com/
note;quoted-printable:It's a heck of a world when an all American boy =0D=0Acan't carry a pocketknife.=0D=0A
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:03:12 -0500
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From: "Becker, Dan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: WWJD
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: J.A. Drew Diaz
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 10:45 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: WWJD
>=20
>=20
> any one who has a chance should find today's
> Mike Peters [ of Mother Goose & Grim fame]
> political Cartoon in re SUVs and WWJD.
Here's where you can get it on-line in about 5 days:
<http://www.activedayton.com/ddn/opinion/peters/peters1.html>
___________________________________________________
Dan Becker, Exec. Dir. "What's this? Fan mail
Raleigh Historic from some flounder?"
Districts Commission - Bullwinkle J. Moose
[log in to unmask]
919/890-3678
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:18:15 -0500
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From: John Leeke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Report from the Field
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Dan Writes:
>>They were handed down to us through
the lassez faire actions of preceding generations and the accretion of
their decisions; this begs the question as to why we should suddenly
need to freeze-frame them in a sterile cocoon of changeless suspension.
Very few resources here would warrant that kind of strict
interpretation.
<<
I think I could use this thinking at The Frost Place, where they have a very
active program of live-in poets and public visitation, which the buildings
must serve first; and also a secondary commitment to preservation of the
buildings.
John
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:28:15 -0500
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From: "J.A. Drew Diaz" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: EDGE
Subject: Re: Report from Fatherhood
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Anyone have an opinion in re:
What is the appropriate age for a child to get his/her 1st pocket knife-
I'm of the opinion that 2nd grade is OK...
Drew Diaz
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url:http://edgedc.com/
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note;quoted-printable:It's a heck of a world when an all American boy =0D=0Acan't carry a pocketknife.=0D=0A
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:37:25 -0800
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<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Cuyler Page <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Heritage Interpretation Services
Subject: Re: 3 Jakes
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> My question is, how many other things in the world are called Jakes?
>
> Ralph
Big trucks have "Jake Brakes" on their engines.
cp in bc
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:35:20 -0500
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From: "J.A. Drew Diaz" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: EDGE
Subject: Re: 3 Jakes
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jake leg n : a paralysis caused by drinking improperly distilled or
contaminated
liquor
Cuyler Page wrote:
> > My question is, how many other things in the world are called Jakes?
> >
> > Ralph
>
> Big trucks have "Jake Brakes" on their engines.
>
> cp in bc
>
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:15:09 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Ken Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 3 Jakes
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="part1_188.1190dd15.2b15304d_boundary"
--part1_188.1190dd15.2b15304d_boundary
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
JAKE = jointly administered knowledge environment
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">JAKE = jointly administered knowledge environment</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=5 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:09:51 -0500
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From: "Hammarberg, Eric" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Report from Fatherhood
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In a PC way, it depends on the kid (ie: your guess is as good as mine)
Coincidentally, a contractor I met with today relayed a story where he gave
a pocket knife to his 15 yr old nephew, who he thought would be alright with
the knife and cautioned him against taking it to school etc. Well a few days
later the kid gets suspended for pulling it on a classmate.
Go figure!
Eric Hammarberg
Associate Director of Preservation
Associate
LZA Technology
641 Avenue of the Americas
New York, NY 10011-2014
Telephone: 917.661.8160 (Direct)
Mobile: 917.439.3537
Fax: 917.661.8161 (Direct)
email: [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: J.A. Drew Diaz [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 12:28 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Report from Fatherhood
Anyone have an opinion in re:
What is the appropriate age for a child to get his/her 1st pocket knife-
I'm of the opinion that 2nd grade is OK...
Drew Diaz
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:16:33 -0500
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "J.A. Drew Diaz" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: EDGE
Subject: Re: Report from Fatherhood
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Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E9C049E0532D90131CDBD451"
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"Hammarberg, Eric" wrote:
> In a PC way, it depends on the kid (ie: your guess is as good as mine)
>
> Coincidentally, a contractor I met with today relayed a story where he gave
> a pocket knife to his 15 yr old nephew, who he thought would be alright with
> the knife and cautioned him against taking it to school etc. Well a few days
> later the kid gets suspended for pulling it on a classmate.
>
which reminds me that I did promise my daughter a butterfly knife when she
starts dating-
hopefully @ age 27
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Content-Description: Card for J.A. Drew Diaz
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="ddedge.vcf"
begin:vcard
n:Diaz;J.A. Drew
tel;cell:917.971.1577
tel;fax:212.741.7423
tel;work:212.741.7348
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://edgedc.com/
org:EDGE Development Construction
version:2.1
email;internet:[log in to unmask]
adr;quoted-printable:;;Suite 1205=0D=0A150 W 28th St;NY;NY;10001;http://edgedc.com/
note;quoted-printable:It's a heck of a world when an all American boy =0D=0Acan't carry a pocketknife.=0D=0A
fn:Drew Diaz
end:vcard
--------------E9C049E0532D90131CDBD451--
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:48:13 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ken Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Report from Fatherhood
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In a PC way, it depends on the kid
I don't remember the age but I've always felt the Boy Scout policy of
teaching safe knife practice and then giving a Toten' Chip card that could be
revoked, along with a confiscated knife, a smart way to go. I think tools
need to be respected and a pocket knife is an introduction to respecting
tools. At what age should a kid be allowed to use a power saw or run a
backhoe? I've known some pretty young kids on the farm running backhoes just
fine. I do have an opinion though on the age for a 22 rifle, which is 12...
it worked for me and I still got it probably because I never did think to
take it to school.
][<en
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a PC way, it depends on the kid</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I don't remember the age but I've always felt the Boy Scout policy of teaching safe knife practice and then giving a Toten' Chip card that could be revoked, along with a confiscated knife, a smart way to go. I think tools need to be respected and a pocket knife is an introduction to respecting tools. At what age should a kid be allowed to use a power saw or run a backhoe? I've known some pretty young kids on the farm running backhoes just fine. I do have an opinion though on the age for a 22 rifle, which is 12... it worked for me and I still got it probably because I never did think to take it to school.<BR>
<BR>
][<en</FONT></HTML>
--part1_134.182330bc.2b15461d_boundary--
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:18:56 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 3 Jakes
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 11/26/2002 3:15:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask]
writes:
> JAKE = jointly administered knowledge environment
Is that us?
Ralph
--part1_17f.128c91cc.2b158590_boundary
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/26/2002 3:15:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">JAKE = jointly administered knowledge environment</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Is that us?<BR>
<BR>
Ralph</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:25:08 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Report from Fatherhood
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In a message dated 11/26/2002 4:13:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
> Coincidentally, a contractor I met with today relayed a story where he gave
> a pocket knife to his 15 yr old nephew, who he thought would be alright
> with
> the knife and cautioned him against taking it to school etc. Well a few
> days
> later the kid gets suspended for pulling it on a classmate.
>
>
Yeah, well, a certain retired Boy Scout of my acquaintance went on an Indian
Guide "campout" (where everybody slept in buildings), during which a
surprisingly large number of dads who'd signed an agreement not to imbibe
alcohol did exactly that. Anyway, this particular dad decided that he we was
much smarter and more able than a bunch of drunken dentists and tire
salesmen, and decided to split a tree branch about the size of your thumb,
using his trusty Swish Army Knife.
Well, this dickhead wound up slicing into his left hand between thumb and
index finger when the knife slipped off the partially frozen branch and had
to be driven to the emergency room in the middle of the goddam night by one
of the other 3 sober dads present.
Fortunately, all I have to show for it is a scar.
Ralph
--part1_6d.3054f00.2b158704_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/26/2002 4:13:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Coincidentally, a contractor I met with today relayed a story where he gave<BR>
a pocket knife to his 15 yr old nephew, who he thought would be alright with<BR>
the knife and cautioned him against taking it to school etc. Well a few days<BR>
later the kid gets suspended for pulling it on a classmate.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Yeah, well, a certain retired Boy Scout of my acquaintance went on an Indian Guide "campout" (where everybody slept in buildings), during which a surprisingly large number of dads who'd signed an agreement not to imbibe alcohol did exactly that. Anyway, this particular dad decided that he we was much smarter and more able than a bunch of drunken dentists and tire salesmen, and decided to split a tree branch about the size of your thumb, using his trusty Swish Army Knife. <BR>
<BR>
Well, this dickhead wound up slicing into his left hand between thumb and index finger when the knife slipped off the partially frozen branch and had to be driven to the emergency room in the middle of the goddam night by one of the other 3 sober dads present.<BR>
<BR>
Fortunately, all I have to show for it is a scar.<BR>
<BR>
Ralph</FONT></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:18:22 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Report from Fatherhood
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_a7.2a984611.2b15937e_boundary"
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In a message dated 11/26/02 9:25:37 PM, [log in to unmask] writes:
> Fortunately, all I have to show for it is a scar. Ralph
But Ralph, you didn't tell us about the guy who cut himself. What happened
to him?
Sign me, Vulgar Language Does Not Make You Eloquent
--part1_a7.2a984611.2b15937e_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/26/02 9:25:37 PM, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Fortunately, all I have to show for it is a scar. Ralph</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
But Ralph, you didn't tell us about the guy who cut himself. What happened to him? <BR>
Sign me, Vulgar Language Does Not Make You Eloquent<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:48:27 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Heidi Harendza <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Compromise WWHD? (What Would Howard Do?)
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In a message dated 11/24/2002 11:57:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
<< I don't think you need to "subscribe to the Howard Roark theory of
architecture" to hold the opinion that, the thicker the bureaucracy, the more
finely minced is the artistic impulse.
Read also the battle-statements made by the non-profit preservation groups
involved in such discussions - they show little evidence of connoisseurship
or real architectural concerns - they are simply about bulk, shadows, views
of existing tenancies, construction noise. In such an environment, could even
Howard have a chance? >>
I generally subscribe to the idea that preservation policy is a means of
managing change within a community-- it is rarely a matter of history for
history sake. The politics of aesthetics and property are an unsavory yet
inevitable result. But with so few tools to moderate change in a rapidly
morphing society, can we blame partisans from using any means available to
gain a measure of control within the built envoronment?
The idea of moderation, I think, affects new design as well. While it may
inhibit outstanding design, it also protects against awful intrusions.
However, I also think that many designers are not particularly sensitive to
the scale and rhythm of the environment. But I'm rather critical of many new
designs-- philistine that I am, if someone has to 'explain' a building for me
to appreciate it, then it's failed a fundamental test.
I'm reminded of a lovely square in London-- there was a mix of housing on the
street ranging from several Georgian townhouses to a lovely Moderne apartment
complex. The modern building, with its graceful sweeping curves on the front,
was clearly different from other buildings on the street, but blended
beautifully with the streetscape. While I'm sure this building won't ever be
considered an architectural masterwork, it made a far more important
statement by accepting the existing environment, rather than straining to
alter what was already an established space.
To make a literary analogy-- it's like a sonnet as compared to free verse.
Yes there are more constraints, but with creative application, the form is
infinitely varied.
Now all we need are a couple of Brownings and Shakespeares.
-Heidi
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:25:04 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: John Leeke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Report from Fatherhood--long
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My boy got to carry his own pocket knife when he had demonstrated the
ability to keep his bench knife sharp and use it safely, maybe he was about
11. He probably had been using and sharpening his bench knife, which stayed
on his bench, for about 3 years, usually with my supervision and guidance.
In my own case my dad wouldn't give me a pocket knife and just wouldn't give
a pocket knife, and then later on he still wouldn't, always saying, "you'll
cut yourself." So, I determined to make one for myself and keep it hidden
away. I knew there were two secrets to making a pocket knife: The Stone and
The Rivet. The first was easy and the second was unfathomable. First, was
the old round grindstone that leaned up against the tree out in the front
yard. It was a flat white sandstone, about two feet across, and had a square
hole in the middle of it. This stone had the magic ability to turn dull grey
metal into a sharp steelly edge. I had seen my dad do it many times, as he
stepped out to visit with the neighbor, that I had it down by heart: Take
the knife out of your pocket and open it up, hooch down with your knee
against the stone, spit on the blade of the knife, and touch the blade to
the stone. It was the knee and the spit that made it work, I had seen it
with my own eyes, a bright steelly edge so sharp it could cleanly shave the
hair off the back of his hand, as he demonstrated for the neighbor so many
times.
The rivet was still a mystery. These were little pins of metal that held the
sides on the knife and provided a pivot for opening the blade. I could see
how the rivet worked, and for the longest time I wondered how to make one.
Then one day my dad and I were making a new stovepipe for the woodstove.
After cutting a square of sheet metal and forming it into a cylinder he
reached up and pulled down an old wooden cigar box, and said those magic
words, "now, we'll just rivet this seam right up." The cigar box held
several sizes and types of rivets and the all important rivet set, a steel
tool with holes and dimples of various sizes that matched the rivets. We
lined up the sheet metal seams, drilled holes for the rivets, popped a rivet
in each hole, set the rivet with a tamp of a hammer, and then peened over
the head of the rivets--so that's what a ball'peen' hammer is for. HA.
Unknown to my dad, he had revealed to me the great Secret of the Rivets.
That whole summer I was busy on my knives whenever my dad was not around.
First I made a bench knife with a blade from a scrap of the stovepipe
sheetmetal and split pine handles fastened with copper rivets from the cigar
box. But, I couldn't really get the stone to sharpen the edge. I had the
knee, the spit, but I could not get the touch right. Then it struck me, the
neighbor was part of the magic formula. I call him over by the tree for a
little visit. As I did the knee, the spit and the touch he could see I was
not getting an edge so he suggested, just rub it back and forth. Ah, ha!
Grey metal into bright steely edge--I was in business! I got it sharp enough
to whittle out the hickory handle for my next knife, a true clasping pocket
knife, made with an old pocket knife blade I found in the kitchen junk
drawer, and a little leaf spring from an old broken clock, which kept the
blade locked open. Once it was all riveted together I sanded the hickory
handles and rubbed them on my nose to brighten up the grain. Excited, I ran
out front to the stone which began to work its magic and I was getting a
nice bright steely edge. I glanced over and saw my dad's shoe laying there
by the tree and thought that it was odd he would leave his shoes laying
around in the front yard. Then it moved-YIKES, my dad was attached to that
shoe, my dad saw the knife, my goose was cooked. I crouched there, kept my
eyes on the stone as my trembling hand offered the knife up to my dad. My
eye's watered up, knowing they would never see that knife again, tan hickory
and bright steely edge, never again. Dad said, "Look here," my eyes met his
and tears rolled out making little dark spots on the stone below. With a
grin he said, "this is a fine knife. You can't keep a secret, but you can
keep this pocket knife." Then he showed me one last pocket knife
secret--"always keep the edge moving away from you and you will never cut
yourself." He closed the knife and placed it in my hand. With a deep breath
I slipped the knife into my pocket and gave it a pat. As we turned together
I noticed the neighbor over on his porch and all three of us grinning.
John (with pocket knife scar on right index finger) Leeke
copyright 2002 John C. Leeke
--
To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:29:44 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Hammarberg, Eric" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Report from Fatherhood--long
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Thanks John
(father of 8 and 5 year old boys and 6 week daughter)
Eric Hammarberg
Associate Director of Preservation
Associate
LZA Technology
641 Avenue of the Americas
New York, NY 10011-2014
Telephone: 917.661.8160 (Direct)
Mobile: 917.439.3537
Fax: 917.661.8161 (Direct)
email: [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: John Leeke [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 3:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Report from Fatherhood--long
My boy got to carry his own pocket knife when he had demonstrated the
ability to keep his bench knife sharp and use it safely, maybe he was about
11. He probably had been using and sharpening his bench knife, which stayed
on his bench, for about 3 years, usually with my supervision and guidance.
In my own case my dad wouldn't give me a pocket knife and just wouldn't give
a pocket knife, and then later on he still wouldn't, always saying, "you'll
cut yourself." So, I determined to make one for myself and keep it hidden
away. I knew there were two secrets to making a pocket knife: The Stone and
The Rivet. The first was easy and the second was unfathomable. First, was
the old round grindstone that leaned up against the tree out in the front
yard. It was a flat white sandstone, about two feet across, and had a square
hole in the middle of it. This stone had the magic ability to turn dull grey
metal into a sharp steelly edge. I had seen my dad do it many times, as he
stepped out to visit with the neighbor, that I had it down by heart: Take
the knife out of your pocket and open it up, hooch down with your knee
against the stone, spit on the blade of the knife, and touch the blade to
the stone. It was the knee and the spit that made it work, I had seen it
with my own eyes, a bright steelly edge so sharp it could cleanly shave the
hair off the back of his hand, as he demonstrated for the neighbor so many
times.
The rivet was still a mystery. These were little pins of metal that held the
sides on the knife and provided a pivot for opening the blade. I could see
how the rivet worked, and for the longest time I wondered how to make one.
Then one day my dad and I were making a new stovepipe for the woodstove.
After cutting a square of sheet metal and forming it into a cylinder he
reached up and pulled down an old wooden cigar box, and said those magic
words, "now, we'll just rivet this seam right up." The cigar box held
several sizes and types of rivets and the all important rivet set, a steel
tool with holes and dimples of various sizes that matched the rivets. We
lined up the sheet metal seams, drilled holes for the rivets, popped a rivet
in each hole, set the rivet with a tamp of a hammer, and then peened over
the head of the rivets--so that's what a ball'peen' hammer is for. HA.
Unknown to my dad, he had revealed to me the great Secret of the Rivets.
That whole summer I was busy on my knives whenever my dad was not around.
First I made a bench knife with a blade from a scrap of the stovepipe
sheetmetal and split pine handles fastened with copper rivets from the cigar
box. But, I couldn't really get the stone to sharpen the edge. I had the
knee, the spit, but I could not get the touch right. Then it struck me, the
neighbor was part of the magic formula. I call him over by the tree for a
little visit. As I did the knee, the spit and the touch he could see I was
not getting an edge so he suggested, just rub it back and forth. Ah, ha!
Grey metal into bright steely edge--I was in business! I got it sharp enough
to whittle out the hickory handle for my next knife, a true clasping pocket
knife, made with an old pocket knife blade I found in the kitchen junk
drawer, and a little leaf spring from an old broken clock, which kept the
blade locked open. Once it was all riveted together I sanded the hickory
handles and rubbed them on my nose to brighten up the grain. Excited, I ran
out front to the stone which began to work its magic and I was getting a
nice bright steely edge. I glanced over and saw my dad's shoe laying there
by the tree and thought that it was odd he would leave his shoes laying
around in the front yard. Then it moved-YIKES, my dad was attached to that
shoe, my dad saw the knife, my goose was cooked. I crouched there, kept my
eyes on the stone as my trembling hand offered the knife up to my dad. My
eye's watered up, knowing they would never see that knife again, tan hickory
and bright steely edge, never again. Dad said, "Look here," my eyes met his
and tears rolled out making little dark spots on the stone below. With a
grin he said, "this is a fine knife. You can't keep a secret, but you can
keep this pocket knife." Then he showed me one last pocket knife
secret--"always keep the edge moving away from you and you will never cut
yourself." He closed the knife and placed it in my hand. With a deep breath
I slipped the knife into my pocket and gave it a pat. As we turned together
I noticed the neighbor over on his porch and all three of us grinning.
John (with pocket knife scar on right index finger) Leeke
copyright 2002 John C. Leeke
--
To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:18:45 -0500
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Report from Fatherhood--long
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 11/27/2002 3:29:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:
> (father of 8 and 5 year old boys and 6 week daughter)
Eric,
In view of the above, you might want to consider changing your phone number again. And by the way, congratulations.
Talph
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:14:24 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Report from Fatherhood
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In a message dated 11/26/2002 10:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
> Sign me, Vulgar Language Does Not Make You Eloquent
You seem to have misunderstood my use of standard Construction Industry
nomenclature. People frequently do.
Ralph
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/26/2002 10:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Sign me, Vulgar Language Does Not Make You Eloquent</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
You seem to have misunderstood my use of standard Construction Industry nomenclature. People frequently do.<BR>
<BR>
Ralph<BR>
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Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:22:51 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Report from Fatherhood--long
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In a message dated 11/27/2002 3:27:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
> John (with pocket knife scar on right index finger) Leeke
>
Nice story, John. Sounds like you were one fart smeller in your yout', not
just in your dotage.
Ralph
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/27/2002 3:27:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">John (with pocket knife scar on right index finger) Leeke<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Nice story, John. Sounds like you were one fart smeller in your yout', not just in your dotage.<BR>
<BR>
Ralph</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:08:14 -0600
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
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From: John Callan <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: John Callan, Architect, Inc.
Subject: Re: Report from Fatherhood
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Its not common for architects to fully develop the nomenclature and it
can be quite unsettling coming from an architect. Sort of like Bat Man
without a mask...or rubber muscles.
-jc
Ralph Walter wrote:
> In a message dated 11/26/2002 10:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
>
>
>> Sign me, Vulgar Language Does Not Make You Eloquent
>
> You seem to have misunderstood my use of standard Construction
> Industry nomenclature. People frequently do.
>
> Ralph
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Its not common for architects to fully develop the nomenclature and it
can be quite unsettling coming from an architect. Sort of like Bat
Man without a mask...or rubber muscles.
<p>-jc
<p>Ralph Walter wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>In a message dated
11/26/2002 10:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:</font></font>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=+0>Sign
me, Vulgar Language Does Not Make You Eloquent</font></font></font></blockquote>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>You seem to have
misunderstood my use of standard Construction Industry nomenclature.
People frequently do.</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>Ralph</font></font></font></blockquote>
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Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 23:17:33 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: knife going
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...Here in the styx....firearm safety and knife saftey....are taught early;
Tonight under the glow of a couple of colemans I watched a father instruct
his 10 yr old son on how to field dress the boys " first" deer ; a buck;
with a "skinner" ;( a sharp curved affair of about 7 inches with a hook at
the end ) that guts the deer; then expertly skins it.
The boy; after his kill was initiated into the rites of passage by having the
deer blood smeared on his facial cheeks by a circle of boys ; with dads
and uncles.
This is a big deal Now it is his pride that he for the first time will "put
food " on his familles table ; This rite of passage; simple and simplistic
runs universal deep in the family circle of the rural south giving maturity
to children of both sexes.
Any irresponsibility regarding firearms or knife handling is a mark of
immaturity; shaming both child and parent and reaps. All the humility
associated with such stigma within the peer group. No matter what the
background of the parent very few kids will ever make the same mistake twice.
In many ways the boys skill with this basic technology of weapons has
allowed him to join the family adults now as a "provider" ; serious stuff
when you are poor and Dad and mom cannot afford to eat out with the whole
family even at a burger joint.
Here in Mississippi the "politically correct "on the nightly news tell us we
are the poorest state in the Union ; yea we(collective we ) live in tin
roof shacks and eek by on part time jobs but the freezers on the porch are
filled with game and fish; and most kids know how cook and clean fish;
rabbit; deer; turkey and make their own bow an arrows; and tend a garden
....something none of our best schools are callable of teaching......Pyrate
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Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:50:55 -0800
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Ruth Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Opportunity Knox
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Ralph, Is this your first invitation? I get them weekly, not always from
the same relative of a big cheese, but from some relative of some big
cheese in some far away place. Always with a hard luck story about bad
guys wanting to get their hands on the dead big cheese's millions or
billions--who's counting. Funny but this farm girl just isn't interested
in all that loot. It's just too much trouble, and besides, charity begins
at home. Please don't squander all our hard earned dues just to, MAYBE,
get some loot for our pensions which are a LOOOOOONNNNNGGGGGG way off.
Country Mouse
PS: Here's hoping all your turkeys are tender. Ours is a forty pounder we
raised ourselves.
At 6:20 PM -0500 11/23/02, Ralph Walter wrote:
>Hot damn!
>
>I finally have been invited, by one Robert Savimbi, nephew of the big
>cheese in Angola, to participate in one of these events. I forget whether
>the uncle was the gov't or the rebel, but now he (the uncle) is dead and
>the locals are running around like cattle without a shepherd.
>
>This last is the nephew's phrase; I thought cattle were herded by cowboys,
>and shepherds tended sheep, but what do I know? (This is a rhetorical
>question and your negative response is not invited, but it's kind of you
>to offer.)
>
>Should I invest all the pinhead dues in this? I think the deal is I get
>15% of what's in a cigar box someplace, and 5% of the haul gets donated to
>MY favorite charity, which of course is the Pinhead Pension Fund.
>
>Lemme know. Young Robert got my address through a directory, so he must
>know me very well and respect me highly, just like you guys.
>
>Ralph
>
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Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Westminster, VT
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Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:40:23 -0600
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: John Callan <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: John Callan, Architect, Inc.
Subject: Re: knife going
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Thanks Ruth. I'll share this with my son.
He is now attending a school full of young artists...the offspring of artistic
people. Uncomfortably far to the left of me, where political correctness leaves
little room for appreciation for the folks you describe. So I am forced to
present views, for fear he will not be exposed to them.
Recently he has been going on about the virtues of vegetarian diets...and I have
been musing why he gets his information from people who live in cities and have
no relationships with animals that are not pets. Hardly expertise.
He suggests that people who eat meat should be required to go hunt...and I
respond by describing the cruelty and dangers presented by hunters in the woods
who have no skills.
I resent having my liberal credentials always on trial. Seems to me tolerance
comes from exposure to people, not dogma.
Mississippi has not always been the poorest state. I had the honor of being
unemployed one year while Maine swept Mississippi to the side in its race for
the economic bottom. Many years ago, but I doubt that even today there's that
much difference between being poor in the 50th poorest and the 49th.
Hmmmm....maybe even in the least poor state.
-jc
[log in to unmask] wrote:
> ...Here in the styx....firearm safety and knife saftey....are taught early;
> Tonight under the glow of a couple of colemans I watched a father instruct
> his 10 yr old son on how to field dress the boys " first" deer ; a buck;
> with a "skinner" ;( a sharp curved affair of about 7 inches with a hook at
> the end ) that guts the deer; then expertly skins it.
> The boy; after his kill was initiated into the rites of passage by having the
> deer blood smeared on his facial cheeks by a circle of boys ; with dads
> and uncles.
> This is a big deal Now it is his pride that he for the first time will "put
> food " on his familles table ; This rite of passage; simple and simplistic
> runs universal deep in the family circle of the rural south giving maturity
> to children of both sexes.
>
> Any irresponsibility regarding firearms or knife handling is a mark of
> immaturity; shaming both child and parent and reaps. All the humility
> associated with such stigma within the peer group. No matter what the
> background of the parent very few kids will ever make the same mistake twice.
>
> In many ways the boys skill with this basic technology of weapons has
> allowed him to join the family adults now as a "provider" ; serious stuff
> when you are poor and Dad and mom cannot afford to eat out with the whole
> family even at a burger joint.
> Here in Mississippi the "politically correct "on the nightly news tell us we
> are the poorest state in the Union ; yea we(collective we ) live in tin
> roof shacks and eek by on part time jobs but the freezers on the porch are
> filled with game and fish; and most kids know how cook and clean fish;
> rabbit; deer; turkey and make their own bow an arrows; and tend a garden
> ....something none of our best schools are callable of teaching......Pyrate
>
> --
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
> <http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
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Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:59:35 EST
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
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From: Ralph Walter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Opportunity Knox
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In a message dated 11/28/2002 6:45:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
> Ralph, Is this your first invitation? Yes, and I was SO excited about it
> until you rained on my Thanksgiving Day parade! I get them weekly, not
> always from the same relative of a big cheese, but from some relative of
> some big
> cheese in some far away place. Always with a hard luck story about bad
> guys wanting to get their hands on the dead big cheese's millions or
> billions--who's counting. Funny but this farm girl just isn't interested
> in all that loot. How short sighted of you. It's just too much trouble, I
> got news for ya-- I see most everything as too muhc trouble. and besides,
> charity begins at home. Please don't squander all our hard earned dues
> just to, MAYBE,
> get some loot for our pensions which are a LOOOOOONNNNNGGGGGG way off. Not
> to worry about your penny-ante pensions---our boy Dubya is investing them
> safely with his friends on Wall Street so that he can cut their taxes and
> more will come back to you.
>
> And why would anybody want a home-grown 40 lb turkey when you could drive
> 15 minutes to the chain grocery store and get a free frozen 10 pounder in
> exchange for having spend thousands of dollars at the grocery store over
> the course of a year?
>
> Happy turkey to all, from one who knows from turkeys.
>
> Ralph
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/28/2002 6:45:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Ralph, Is this your first invitation? <B>Yes, and I was SO excited about it until you rained on my Thanksgiving Day parade! </B>I get them weekly, not always from the same relative of a big cheese, but from some relative of some big<BR>
cheese in some far away place. Always with a hard luck story about bad<BR>
guys wanting to get their hands on the dead big cheese's millions or<BR>
billions--who's counting. Funny but this farm girl just isn't interested<BR>
in all that loot. <B>How short sighted of you. </B>It's just too much trouble, <B>I got news for ya-- I see most everything as too muhc trouble. </B>and besides, charity begins at home. Please don't squander all our hard earned dues just to, MAYBE,<BR>
get some loot for our pensions which are a LOOOOOONNNNNGGGGGG way off. <B>Not to worry about your penny-ante pensions---our boy Dubya is investing them safely with his friends on Wall Street so that he can cut their taxes and more will come back to you. <BR>
<BR>
And why would anybody want a home-grown 40 lb turkey when you could drive 15 minutes to the chain grocery store and get a free frozen 10 pounder in exchange for having spend thousands of dollars at the grocery store over the course of a year?<BR>
<BR>
Happy turkey to all, from one who knows from turkeys.<BR>
<BR>
Ralph</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
<BR>
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Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 19:51:01 -0800
Reply-To: make easy -- get sakcrete
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Ruth Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Opportunity Knox
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Ralph, That ain't no turkey---that's just a big ol stewin' hen. They sure
got you fooled don't they? HaHaHappy Thanksgiving to all and to all a good
night, unless I find some more info that I know nothing about to comment
upon.
BTW: Turkey was delicous
At 1:59 PM -0500 11/28/02, Ralph Walter wrote:
And why would anybody want a home-grown 40 lb turkey when you could drive
15 minutes to the chain grocery store and get a free frozen 10 pounder in
exchange for having spend thousands of dollars at the grocery store over
the course of a year?
Happy turkey to all, from one who knows from turkeys.
Ralph
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Westminster, VT
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