"When the solution is simple God is working" Albert Eistein! E=mcc >From: Dampha Kebba <[log in to unmask]> >Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list ><[log in to unmask]> >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: A challenge to those advocating violent change in The Gambia > - Reply To Kebba Dampha >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:59:50 EDT > >Buharry, I don't have the the desire now nor a whole weekend to respond to >your gibberish. When I do, you will swallow everything you said in this >posting in your subsequent posting. I realized that in this posting, you >began to back track about your "challenge". When I made it abundantly clear >to you the pettiness of your "challenge", you narrowed it down to a yes or >no issue. You must really have time in your hands to write all those >sentences just to solicit a yes or no answer from us. Yeah I commended you >in the past, together with hamjatta (whom i still respect a lot despite >some >of our differences) Dr. Touray, Dr. Saine and others to show you that this >struggle has room for everyone. For lack of a better word, I attacked you >when you questioned the commitment and intelligence of the Gambian >electorate and people that advocate the violent removal of Yaya. And I will >attack any one who does that. The pressure you talked about in this piece >seems to refer to the future. Whereas the pressure you were talking about >the other day was referring to the past. Clarify. For your information >also, >Darboe and co were released by a court in Banjul and not in Basse. The >Americans even dowplayed their presence in Basse saying that it was merely >to observe what was going on. Their prensence would not have stopped Baabaa >Jobe. To conclude for now, I will just give you a simple statistic viz, on >April 10 and 11 when diplomacy (from the students) met force from Yaya, 15 >children lost their lives. During the UDP ambush when force met force, one >Yaya supporter lost his life. It should not take a rocket scientist to >decipher this one. Watch this space. When I find time, I will show you >again >how you are fighting a losing battle. Before I forget, reread my earlier >postings. I never asked you to join me and others to overthrow Yaya >violently. What I was asking for was debate about what to do once Yaya was >gotten rid of. I have said this a number of times. I wonder why it escaped >you. Yeah I was frustrated that some could not see the subtle difference in >what I was trying to say. But I was not irate and I do not hold any hard >feeling against people for not contributing to that debate when I called >for >their contributions. Many people, including yourself contributed indirectly >to the debate. Am happy with that. If you look closely at one of the >memorandum I wrote, I called for the registration of Gambians living abroad >to vote in presidential elections before it was brough up again by Dr. >Saine >and you volunteered to write something about it. I was happy to see that >contribution eventhough it was not done in response to my call. I would not >even address (now or later) your insinuation about me being a dictator like >Yaya. You contradicted yourself in your own piece because you said that I >come here to push some ideas. If I were a dictator, I would not come here >to >discuss issues. A few days ago, Saul registered his disagreement with my >counseling Ousainou Darboe to go underground. Did I become irate and impose >my ideas on Saul? I respectfully explained my reasoning and then agreed >with >his position. There are tons of things that go on here and other forums >that >I do not agree with. But I do not go around imposing my will on people. >KB > > >>From: MOMODOU BUHARRY GASSAMA <[log in to unmask]> >>Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list >><[log in to unmask]> >>To: [log in to unmask] >>Subject: Re: A challenge to those advocating violent change in The Gambia >> - Reply To Kebba Dampha >>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:50:10 +0200 >> >>Hi Kebba! >> Thank you for taking the time to respond to my >>posting. >>Before going further, I need to register the fact that out of respect not >>only for myself, the members of the L and you, I shall ignore the context >>in >>which you used some words. I shall also for the benefit of carrying out a >>healthy debate refuse to debate in a manner that would negatively impact >>on >>the serious and important topic that we are dealing with. Those things >>aside, please allow me to respond to some of the issues you raised. You >>wrote: >> >>"Buharry, are you really serious when you ask us to come to Gambia_L and >>tell the whole world how we are going to overthrow Yaya?" >> >>Where did I ask you to go into the mechanics of how you are going to >>remove >>Yaya? What I asked was whether you had anything apart from empty rhetoric >>to >>convince people to rally behind you. A simple yes would have sufficed >>because I am not in any position to check the veracity of your statements. >>You can tell me that you have 100 million Dollars stashed somewhere, piles >>of arms and ammunition piled somewhere and whatever you want or you can >>tell >>me that you have absolutely nothing. I would only have to take your word >>for >>it because I am not in any position to verify what you say. Like I wrote >>earlier, the beauty of the cyber identity is that one can be anyone or >>possess whatever one wants. I would not expect you to detail how you are >>going to overthrow Yaya on this very L where all kinds of government >>agencies are subscribed. That would not be too bright of me now. Would it? >> >>You also wrote: >>"Childish challenges will not also prompt us to go to Gambia unprepared. >>So, >>save yourself. We have nothing to prove to you or your likes." >> >>Like I stated in the beginning, I shall not respond to this in a way that >>would derail the debate or in a way that would display disrespect on my >>part. You have nothing to prove to my likes or me? Have I become different >>just because I posted something that once differs from your point of view? >>Just a few weeks ago you wrote: "Buharry,Thank you very much for your >>contributions". So now I have become "those people"? If you have nothing >>to >>prove to my likes and me why did you come to Gambia-L to propagate your >>cause? There are hundreds of my likes listed here. Why have you time and >>again solicited contributions from members to draw a program for your >>cause? >>Why did you get irate when the hundreds of my likes refused to contribute >>because of our conviction that violence isn't the only way to bring about >>change, that there are other methods that should be explored to the >>fullest >>but have not as yet been? >> >>You wrote: >>"What kind of pressure on Yaya are you talking about?" >> >>There are endless varieties of pressures that can be brought to bear. In >>"Peace through Sanctions?" Recommendations for German UN Policy, Manford >>Kulsessa and Dorethee Starck list the following types of sanctions most of >>which can in my opinion be effectively applied to The Gambia. The types of >>sanctions are: >>- Diplomacy where there is closure or a reduction of diplomatic missions, >>ban on entry of officials or exclusion from international organizations. >>- Transport where there is a ban on air, sea and suspension of rail and >>road >>traffic. >>- Communications where post and telecommunications are suspended. >>- Development co-operation where post and telecommunications are >>suspended. >>- Military where military co-operation is terminated and an arms embargo >>is >>instituted. >>- Finance where there is a ban on foreign assets and a ban on financial >>transfers. >>- Trade where embargos and boycotts are instituted. >>- Criminal justice where criminal proceedings are instituted against >>individuals in international tribunals. >> >>David Cortright and George A. Lopez point out in Carrots, Sticks and >>Co-operation: Economic Tools of Statescraft how the US maintained an >>"outer >>wall" of sanctions by among other things blocking Belgrade's membership in >>international organizations. In Nigeria under Abacha, the US banned all >>arms >>sales to the country and expanded its ban on US visas for the junta and >>its >>supporters. The EU imposed an arms embargo; travel restrictions and a >>sports >>boycott while the Commonwealth Ministerial Action Group suspended it from >>membership. In the same book, the authors discussed how an Institute for >>International Economics study shows that of all the types of sanctions >>available, financial sanctions were the most effective. Measures such as >>"the freezing of foreign assets, the cancellation of debt rescheduling, >>the >>withholding of credits and loans, and restrictions on travel, commerce and >>communications" were shown to be very effective in bringing a regime to >>its >>knees especially when that state is weak. So you see Mr. Dampha, there are >>various types of pressure that can be brought to bear. >> >>You also wrote: >>"What would you do if he rigs the next elections?" >>The art of applying and maintaining pressure is to be both proactive and >>reactive. Proactive in that one has to have a hands-on approach and >>thoroughly analyse the situation and predict what the opponent is going to >>do. That way one can put measures into place to discourage him/her from >>doing it. Reactive in that one needs to quickly react when the feared >>situation arises preferably with contingency measures that were already >>designed. Pressure can therefore be brought against Yaya before the >>elections to ensure that the elections are fair and regulated and pressure >>can be brought if he rigs the elections. Remember the short travel advice >>of >>the British and the impact it had on the tourism sector? >> >>You further wrote: >>"Well we would rather not put the Gambians in that position in the first >>place." >>Wow! Thanks for your concern. However, I believe that the alternative you >>are proposing has the potential to put them in a far worse position than >>what you are rejecting. >> >>You also wrote: >>"So am being led to the conclusion that some of you people have been >>blinded >>by your >>egos. You perhaps had previously gone on record saying that you would >>never >>support violence. So because of that, things that should be glaring before >>your eyes would read something else to you. Get off your high horses and >>join the struggle." >> >>Excuse me, Sir! Egos? High horses? C'mon, man. Whose ego is getting the >>best >>of whom here? Can you understand that some of us truly believe in a >>non-violent solution to Gambia's problems? Is it strange to you? Are you >>demanding that we see things exactly as you do? Isn't that a bit too >>dictatorial on your part sir? I reverse your contention that I get off my >>high horses back to you. I think you should come down to the ground and >>join >>the rest of us who know that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. >>That is the basis of democracy, the democracy you are planning to >>institute >>in The Gambia. Who told you that I am not in the struggle? Just because I >>do >>not propagate violence does not mean that I am not in the struggle. The >>struggle is a multi-faceted enterprise. Do you truly believe that I would >>stick to a position just for the sake of being afraid of changing it >>because >>people would see me in a different light? C'mon sir. I flatteringly like >>to >>think of myself as a dynamic, humble and willing-to-learn person. I have >>many a time even on this L changed my position because someone put in >>better >>arguments. Accepting the superiority of other ideas when they are is the >>essence of learning and I am a learner. >> >>You also wrote: >>"You should know about the struggles of ANC. Did Nelson Mandela, Oliver >>Thambo and the senior Mbeki just sit down and wait for nonexistent >>election >>victories or put all their faith in the hands of the international >>community? No. They bombed the South African government. " >> >>I know not only about the struggles of the ANC but that of South Africa. >>You >>see I like to consider myself to be a Pan-Africanist. I considered the ANC >>a >>sell out during my college days because of their approach. I was more >>impressed by the PAC's "one settler, one bullet" approach. I read so many >>books about the South African struggle. One of my best friends in college >>was the son of Malinga, one of the founders of the PAC who died in prison. >>I >>was very much against Mandela's concessionary stance when he became >>president but after analysing the situation, I was converted. I realised >>that Mandela's stance was more practical and was better for South Africa >>because another approach would have meant bloodshed and unwanton >>destruction. For you to truly believe that South Africa got rid of >>Apartheid >>ONLY because the ANC was bombing targets within South Africa is truly >>amazing. Do you underestimate the impact that sanctions had? External >>sanctions coupled with the civil resistance campaign of the UDF helped to >>bring about sweeping political transformation. >> >>You wrote: >>"Oliver Thambo was in exile running the ANC machinery.Did South Africans >>say >>that they were not going to listen to his calls for self-defense because >>he >>did not live in South Africa? Did they say that they were only going to >>listen to people like Desmond Tutu or sell-outs like Buthelezi? So my >>friend, it is not about where you live, it is about what you bring to the >>table." >> >>The ANC machinery was already in place before he went into exile. I >>believe >>that one can make a positive impact wherever one is. One can also make >>devastating prescriptions knowing fully well that one is sheltered from >>the >>repercussions. If you truly believe that you can make a positive >>contribution from wherever you are without jeopardising our country, power >>to you. >> >>You also wrote: >>"Not with our lives as you might have preferred. We tried diplomatic and >>constitutional means and they did not work." >> >>Mr. Dampha, let me state here that I am NOT your enemy. I would not want >>you >>to lose your life. You are a Gambian like all other Gambians and it is >>because of my concern for Gambians that I am concerned about the >>repercussions of the approach you preach. I do not want violence in my >>country because violence would lead to loss of lives and that is the last >>thing I want. Could you please furnish us with the diplomatic and >>constitutional means you tried so that they can be established to be >>unworkable? >> >>You wrote: >>"I contribute more than you do in trying to make sure that the culprits of >>the massacres face justice." >> >>Power to you, my brother. Who said that I contribute more than you do? >>This >>is not a competition. I am sincerely glad to learn that "you are doing a >>lot >>to make sure that the culprits of the massacres face justice." That is >>what >>I also want and to see that you have contributed to this cause truly makes >>me happy. >> >>You further wrote: >>"What we have a problem with is people that limit our options or give >>priority to options >>that are clearly unworkable." >> >>So you have a problem with people having a different approach to a >>problem? >>You call Yaya a dictator. Why? Isn't it because he too has a problem with >>people who have different approaches? >> >>You wrote: >>"Like I said yesterday (keep repeating myself. But I will gladly do so >>until >>it sinks into your heads)" >> >>Please, please do. Some of us, especially me, are not that clever. So you >>might definitely have to keep hammering home your point before it sinks. I >>was not blessed to be as clever as you. >> >>You wrote: >>"Why don't you want to believe that if a bloodless coup can be pulled in >>1994 another one can be pulled in 2000?" >> >>Let's make a deal here. I believe that a bloodless coup can be pulled off. >>Do you believe that one or more factors can interfere with your "bloodless >>coup" and turn it into a disaster? Things can always go wrong even in the >>most planned of events. >> >>You wrote: >>"If you were attacked by a wild animal today and you have a loaded gun in >>your hand, would you opt to extend your hand to it in the name of >>diplomacy >>or would you blow its brains out?" >> >>That depends. If it happens in a vacuum, that is, I am alone with the >>animal; I would gladly blow its brains out. However, as I said earlier, >>events you are prescribing won't happen in vacuum and there are a lot of >>people who might get hurt in the process. The situation by the way is not >>as >>acute as to leave the options you painted in your scenario. There are >>still >>some options that can be explored. >> >>You further wrote: >>"If your principles of non-violence are so dear to your heart that you do >>not want to join us, fine with us. But please do not demoralize our people >>back home by telling them that the ballot box is the only means Yaya can >>be >>removed from office." >> >>Why can't you believe that I also want the best thing to happen to The >>Gambia? We might have different prescriptions for solving our country's >>problems but that does not make us enemies. The solution to The Gambia's >>problems as mentioned earlier is multi-pronged and all on the various >>fences >>should not consider each other enemies. Where did I say that the ballot >>box >>is the only way of removing Yaya? >> >>You further wrote: >>". people like me have recently called upon the UDP supporters to arm >>themselves and not let their guard down during the coming campaign season. >>We are not calling upon you to leave your cozy existence in Europe to go >>fight in The Gambia neither are we calling upon your unarmed civilian >>brothers to go and confront Yaya." >> >>I ask you where those people are going to get the arms. I further ask you >>where they are going to get licences for those arms because you surely >>wouldn't want them to face heavily armed security personnel with stones, >>sticks etc.? The civilian UDP supporters you are calling upon to be armed >>and confrontational are my fellow Gambians and brothers and sisters. For >>your information, I am not living a cosy existence. I am hustling man, >>like >>most Gambians abroad. >> >>You also wrote: >>"What do you want us to tell the UDP? To lie down and let BaaBaa Jobe walk >>all over them? Or like some of your heroes, pretend that nothing >>undeserving >>happened to the UDP entourage? Or like others, pretend that this was not >>orchestrated by Yaya and his bunch of bandits? We would continue to >>advocate >>the removal of Yaya through violent means until pacifists like you come up >>with better means of removing him. If you are waiting for your heroes on >>the >>ground to advocate the removal of Yaya through violent means, then you >>will >>never see that and therefore you will never be a convert." >> >>No. No. No. Who is pretending that nothing happened to the UDP? Who is >>talking about letting Baba Jobe walk over the UDP? The very presence of >>the >>American and UK ambassadors in the area where the UDP entourage was held >>played a significant part in their release. Pressure, man, pressure. If >>pressure is strategically courted and applied, the results might amaze >>you. >>BTW, who are my heroes on the ground? >> >>You also wrote: >>"The way you help the situation, is to do like Colly, Saul , Matarr and >>others and expose Baabaa Jobe and Yaya for the cowards they are and urge >>UDP >>to be more vigilant." >> >>That is not the only way to help the situation. That is one of various >>ways >>to help and I say thanks to those mentioned for providing the information >>because it is really revealing. I am not saying that the UDP should not be >>vigilant. What I am saying is that the UDP should not send 10 hens to >>fight >>100 lions. >> >>You finally wrote: >>".send a silly petition to the international community." >> >>Thanks for sharing your views on how you see our petition. However, that >>petition, the demonstrations around the world, the action of people on the >>ground played an important part in bringing the events of April to the >>attention of the international community. There you see, pressure sir. >>Thanks and sorry for such a long posting. >> >>Buharry. >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L >>Web interface at: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/gambia-l.html >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L >Web interface at: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/gambia-l.html > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface at: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/gambia-l.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------------