Mike Kinnaird <[log in to unmask]>
>I do believe that Humans, along with the other great apes have a
>'natural' diet, one which we are biologically adapted to. Our closest
>primate relatives eat >mainly fruit and leaves and it seems to me that
>it is these foods which should form the majority of our diet.

Tom:
If you are going to use ape diets as a model (arguable since humans
are
quite different from apes in many ways), then you have to look at
the complete diet. Ignoring an entire class of foods in the model
(e.g., animal foods) means that your use of the model is incomplete
and inaccurate.

Mike Kinnaird <[log in to unmask]>
>I haven't had chance yet to have a thorough look at your links but I do
>intend to. In the bits I looked at briefly, you seem to be constantly
>attacking fruitarianism - the definition of 100% fruit (which not
>everyone uses).

Tom:
If you read more on the site, you will see that the standard
definition of fruitarianism used on the site is 75+% fruit by
weight, where fruit has the common (not botanical) definition.
That said, there is some criticism of the more extreme fruitarian
diets in the links mentioned.

Mike Kinnaird <[log in to unmask]>
>You can see I talk in general terms, I haven't the time or the inclination
>at present to dig into the science and therefore I do rely on experts to
>interpret studies for me and draw conclusions.

Tom:
One of the points I am trying to communicate to you is that the
raw vegan (and conventional vegan) "experts" frequently provide
inaccurate
information. This is regrettable as it puts people's health at risk.
It's also the opposite of compassion, the oft-mentioned but rarely
practiced principle that is allegedly important in veganism.

Mike Kinnaird <[log in to unmask]>
>I know chimps also
>kill other apes but there is a lot of controversy surrounding this.

Tom:
Chimp predation is not limited to monkeys or primates. They prey
on a wide range of species. Check the URLs cited previously for
cites on this.

Mike Kinnaird <[log in to unmask]>
>Again I
>do rely on other more knowledgeable folk and I know of at least a couple of
>raw vegans who have looked deeply into all this comparative physiology
stuff
>and I have great respect for their knowledge.

Tom:
If you read the comparative anatomy article on the Beyond Veg site,
then compare it to the claims of raw vegan experts, you will find
that many of the raw vegan claims are false.  I have tangled
with the raw vegan crank science fanatic who is probably one of
the people whose "knowledge" you say you respect. How can I
politely say this -- that person does not deserve your respect.

If you actually start looking up his references (as I did in
researching the Comparative Anatomy article) you will find many
cases of: quoting out of context, twisting and misrepresenting
the meaning of scentific research, and "logic" so warped it could
better be described as science fiction. Some of the out-of-
context quotes, misrepresentation of references, and dubious "logic"
is discussed in the Comparative Anatomy article on Beyond Veg.

That advocate has also presented a bogus "statistical proof" (using
correlation and covariance) that alleges to prove that fruit and milk
are
the most similar to each other. As a statistician, I can assure
you that said "proof" is invalid. (I have shown it to several
other statisticians - everyone had a good laugh at the ridiculous
"proof"). Anyway, as the author of said "proof" has been advised that
the "proof" is invalid, yet continues to promote it - that leads me to
the opinion that the term "scientific fraud" describes at least
some of the work of the raw vegan crank science fanatic.

Mike Kinnaird <[log in to unmask]>
>I am not intellectually dishonest Tom, I simply seek the truth, whatever

Tom:
I was not suggesting or implying that you are intellectually
dishonest.
On the other hand, see above for a description of a blatantly
intellectually dishonest raw vegan advocate.

Mike Kinnaird <[log in to unmask]>
>Tom, what is the bottom line..... are you now advocating a paleo type
diet??

Tom:
Actually, I don't advocate any specific diet. Instead, my role is
to serve as an info source, and to step back and let folks find
what is best for them. Coming from a raw and veggie background (I am
still a veggie (though not a vegan), still predominantly raw)
I frankly disapprove of the misinformation used to promote
raw and veggie diets, and the emphasis on dogma rather than the
health and welfare of those attempting such diets.

PS  All material in this post written by me is:  Copyright 2000 by
Thomas E. Billings, all rights reserved. Request permission if you
want to
crosspost to other lists.

Tom Billings
http://www.beyondveg.com