[Sorry to beat on this topic, this will be my last, hopefully]

> | David:
> | NFL are welcome to rejoin this list (and have always been as far as
> | I know), under the condition that they agree to keep their posts
> | civil, and be at least somewhat accountable for claims that are
> | expressed as facts or truths
>
> Jo sez:
> I'm glad that some people associated with this list have managed to clear
> the first hurdle.

Well, that hurdle was never really there in the first place - Peter
Brandt, who was moderator when NFL was kicked off, stated that NFL
was welcome back at that time under the same conditions that I listed
above, so there really isn't anything new or changed here - the olive
branch for access to this forum was offered shortly after their
expulsion. Also, some may recall that I extended an invitation to
Stephen Arlin to get his ticket back from Peter, and join raw-rood
after Stephen claimed that raw-food list members refused to debate
him - during our exchanges on jr's raw list, I challenged him to a
civil debate within the guidelines of raw-food to be done on this
list (raw-food to insure the civility and accountability issue),
during/after the (second) big plagiarism scandal. Stephen (surprisingly
politely) refused.

The point above is that *anyone* who can substantially abide by
the guidelines of the list are welcome to join. Discussion on
all aspects of a raw food diet are welcome. However, being
welcome to join under these circumstances does not infer that
one will be immune to critical responses, even past tense
withstanding. It is one thing to be critical of a movement's
position (well, the Nazis have already been brought up here,
so let's repeat it), but yet another to be making stark personal
insults, threats of assault , and even death threats - I have
not seen any threats of assault or death here from participants
of this list (with the exception of NFL before they were kicked
off, lately Jeff), even though we have seen expressions of disgust
with NFL's claims, behavior, and outlook on life.

>
> Beyond not jumping into the 'gator pit with counter-threats and catcalls,
> there's nothing more to offer (down, Kirt, down!)  :)

Well, I don't think Kirt actually has threatened NFL's physical well
being, but he has been critical of their movement (this may be some-
what of an understatement) with a historical perspective on the
issue, so, until Kirt starts threatening them personally or calling
them names like NFL murderers, rapists, etc (which would be totally
unjustified, though NFL has done the same here on raw-food before
they were kicked off), it's really hard not to understand the
degree of frustration that he has expressed with this organization.

>
> | I believe that NFL and supporters need to
> | make a fundamental shift in their values internally and actions
> | externally before perceptions of NFL by many both in and outside
> | of the raw food community improve, if that is indeed the goal.
>
> Bingo.

I think we are really in violent agreement, Jo. I respect your desires
for reconciliation, and expressed the fact that the doors are open
here, and it is up to NFL to make the next move, if they value the
opinions of what I would say to be a substantial number of members
of the raw community, to say the least. As I stated in the previous
post, however, any return on their part will not be just a sugar
pill, there will be critical questions to answer on their movement
- if and when this happens, I hope you will be around to ease the
transitions with your negotiating sense.

Regards,

David
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