Hi Tom,

> Mike Kinnaird <[log in to unmask]>:
> >Chimps and Gorrilas are not our ancestors, true again, but we share over
> >98% of genes and our digestive tracts are identical. They are frugivores -
> >eating primarily fruit and leaves so it would seem reasonable to assume
> >that we are frugivores also n'est pas?
>
> Tom:
> Gorillas are folivores (not frugivores), with the requisite fermentation
> chambers in their guts. Humans lack such chambers; our guts are not
> identical.

I know there are different sorts of gorillas having different diets -
one
sort eating mainly leaves. I also read that they will eat nothing but
fruit
when it's available. I'm not an expert Tom, as you've probably
gathered, but
do I need to become an expert in order to find the optimum diet? I do
believe that Humans, along with the other great apes have a 'natural'
diet,
one which we are biologically adapted to. Our closest primate
relatives eat
mainly fruit and leaves and it seems to me that it is these foods
which
should form the majority of our diet.

I haven't had chance yet to have a thorough look at your links but I
do
intend to. In the bits I looked at briefly, you seem to be constantly
attacking fruitarianism - the definition of 100% fruit (which not
everyone
uses). The popular raw vegan writers do not advocate such a diet but
having
looked into the subject in a broad sense, I come away with the
impression
that 70% fruit, 25% leaves and 5% nuts / seeds is optimum. This would
tie in
nicely with the comparative physiology that I know about.

You can see I talk in general terms, I haven't the time or the
inclination
at present to dig into the science and therefore I do rely on experts
to
interpret studies for me and draw conclusions. For e.g. For me to draw
my
own conclusions on the China project for example would require time
that I
do not have. I simply want to find out what is best for us humans and
get on
with it. I can however use reason and common sense to interpret
someone
elses conclusions.

> Chimps are frugivores, but they are certainly not vegetarians
> (neither are gorillas: lowland gorillas eat termites, mountain
> gorillas eat ants). For a discussion of primate gut morphology,
> see the segments:
>
> http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-6d.shtml
> http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-6e.shtml

And chimps are our closest relative (the bonobo), correct me if I'm
wrong.
Of course, this doesn't automatically mean that our diet should be the
same
but it's a very, very good clue wouldn't you say? I agree with you
about the
insects, I did say that the great apes have some bugs!! I know chimps
also
kill other apes but there is a lot of controversy surrounding this.
Again I
do rely on other more knowledgeable folk and I know of at least a
couple of
raw vegans who have looked deeply into all this comparative physiology
stuff
and I have great respect for their knowledge.

> There is some controversy over whether humans are frugivores or
> faunivores. In either case, we are not "natural" vegetarians (in
> the normal human usage of the term): there is no such thing as
> a strict vegan primate in nature. They all eat insects, even if
> incidental.

I agree, we do have enzymes specifically for digesting insects and it
stands
to reason that eating from the wild, we would automatically have some
bug
protein with our plant stuff and may even have enjoyed getting
termites out
with a stick - who knows.
>
> Mike Kinnaird <[log in to unmask]>:
> >Some primates eat a small amount of animal products (mainly bugs) but it
is
> >generally accepted that they do not need this additional food which forms
> >less than 5% of the diet.
>
> Tom:
> See the segments below for statements by well-known primatologists
> re: the necessity of animal foods in primate diets, esp. chimps
> and gorillas:
>
> http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-2a.shtml
> http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-2b.shtml

I will do this Tom as soon as I have time......thanks

> See also the remarks re: primates showing signs of vitamin B-12
> deficiencies when fed strict vegetarian diets in captivity:
>
> http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-7a.shtml

Will do also......

> If it is "generally accepted" that primates do "not need" the
> animal food component of their diet, then perhaps you can give some
> quotes (from primatology/biology journals) - in context - documenting
> this view.  So far, the only folks that I have seen making such claims
> are raw/vegan diet gurus - some of whom are intellectually dishonest
> and specialize in quoting material out of context and misrepresenting
> the meaning of scientific research.

I was referring to the killing of other apes by chimps.....my source
for
this, the great David Attenborough.....British wildlife presenter here
on
the good old BBC. You're right of course, statements should be backed
up
with argument/science, we're all guilty of that Tom......even you!

I am not intellectually dishonest Tom, I simply seek the truth,
whatever
that may be, but as with most things in life, the truth is not always
easy
to find. I know you yourself at other time would have recommended
different
diets to the one you recommend now. Have you finally arrived? At the
moment,
for me, all seems to point to raw fruit and greens (with any bugs on
them as
well:)).

Tom, what is the bottom line..... are you now advocating a paleo type
diet??

Cheers
Mike.

> PS  All material in this post written by me is:  Copyright 2000 by
> Thomas E. Billings, all rights reserved. Request permission if you want to
> crosspost to other lists.

> PS  All material in this post written by me is:  Copyright 2000 by
> Mike Kinnaird, all rights reserved. Request permission if you want to
> crosspost to other lists.