Hi Louise,

Liza:
> >most likely learned some
> >things about attempting to be unbiased in research

Louise:
> "Unbiased"??? Is this what you truly believe?

Liza:
Yes I do. Objectivity in research is highly valued in the science
world, and despite the oft-cited breaches of ethics that occur
in industry and so on, I do not think that this kind of thing is
_taught_  in the schools! Science professors are not evil
conspirators.
I do think scientists get scapegoated for a lot of what is not at all
their doing.  :o

Louise:
> I have been struggling to educate myself in the field of Holistic
> Nutrition,  and this is far from my experience with the institutions of
> academia.

Liza:
That is a worthy endeavor. But I'm not understanding what you're
saying in the second part of your sentence. Are you saying that your
teachers in your institutions are actually  _teaching_  you how to
perform biased studies? Or to fool with results? Or alter statistics?
Or
ignore data that might have an undesired impact on what you're trying
to
show?

I can't imagine you are saying _those_ things, so, what is
it that you mean?

Louise:
> I made it my mission to educate the head of
> the Nutrition Department in a Minnesota college

Liza:
Another worthy, and impressive, endeavor! It's good to know about
this. :)

Louise:
> I spent hours debating at length with him,

Liza:
Maybe making friends would have worked better? And listening to his
(possibly valid) reasons for sticking to his current curriculum?
Rather than debating? :)

Louise:
> refuting department exams.

Liza:
Don't understand what you mean here. Do you mean that you showed
that his exams were scored incorrectly?

Louise:
> I'll be damned if  I am going to change my entire  curriculum!"

Liza:
Well, at least you can feel proud that you have exposed this person
to all kinds of information and philosophies and so on, that he would
not have had otherwise. And if you've done a good job, you've probably
influenced his thinking somewhat, and as a result, influenced what
his students will learn from him.

What has he told you his reasons for not wanting to change his
curriculum? Does he have management pressures from above (I'm sure he
does - academic politics are BRUTAL - ) that might be difficult? Are
there financial considerations (like having to change all the
materials)
and so on? Does he publish - is he at the moment working on
something, in other words, does he have professional career
considerations that might make this an untimely moment to make such
sweeping changes? What are his reasons?

I'd keep at it, if I were you. Have patience! :) Institutional
bureaucracies lumber along slowly, but they  _do_  move ahead! (You
aren't alone, by the way, lots of other people like you are out
there trying in various creative ways to influence the schools to
change education in the allied health fields. :D  )

Louise:
> My professor said I was seriously handicapped in his class because I knew
> too much,

Liza:
:D  A BIG compliment!! I hope you said, "Thank you!"

I can relate. heh heh. I can _also_ understand what he probably
meant by that comment, too. He meant that it makes it much harder to
know what simplistic, narrow answer is required to pass the dumb test,
when
you see things you're not supposed to be able to see yet.

Louise:
> Tell me, do you truly believe this academic bulimia is good preparation
> for the real world?

Liza:
Yes I do. :) In more ways than one. :D (Oh and by the way, I've
found the professors are better, and the education is MUCH better,
at the higher levels of graduate school, I think. Most of the more
offensive nonsense you're having to deal with happens in
undergraduate courses, mostly).

Louise:
> Oh, yes, exposed to "some information" -but MIS-information is more
> damaging to people who then become heady with the notion that they now
> KNOW SOMETHING, because they have a degree!

Liza:
But they  _do_  know plenty! :) Just like  _you_  will, if you are
not lazy, and give yourself just as rigorous an education as you
might get at one of the better schools. :)

Louise:
> Taking abuse at great personal and financial cost and sacrificing yourself
> at the altar of the "Higher Minds"? It certainly does say something about
> you, if you really believe this is healthy...It just means that you have
> become quite good at sucking up your integrity and parroting the nonsense
> of whatever BIAS your professors saddled you with, to get the grade, to
> pass the class, to get that degree. What an achievement!

Liza:
It's a ticket, Louise. In our house, going to college is  _very_
highly valued.

I can tell you this. My 21-year-old son is now in his 3rd year at
school (he's doing GREAT, by the way, especially considering the
really super hard courses he's had to take semester after semester -
last semester he took two (not one, but TWO! =:o) physics courses, a
chemistry course, a history course (with the UNBELIEVABLE amount of
reading required in history courses), AND an English course
(creative writing - again - huge amounts of time). He got all A's
and B's. To me that is amazing, and it's not an easy
school, either. (All this, and he's also the CONSUMATE party
animal, a babe-magnet extraordinaire (Adidas uses him as a model -
_they_  approached  _him_  in Florida during Spring Break - so this
is not just a mother's biased vision :)  ) - and he is the
unchallenged
King of his fraternity).

Anyhow, enough bragging. :) But there  actually  _is_  a point to my
telling you this. Here's the point. ALL of my son's friends from
our neighborhood here where they all grew up together and did
everything together as a "gang" every waking moment of their entire
lives until now - *every single one of his friends* without
exception - did NOT go to college, and instead is working at an
awful, low-paid, dead-end job. One works nights, with his Mom, right
up the road at the Bingo Palace, and days at the gas station. Two
joined the Marines. Another is at Burger King. Another is working as a
construction laborer (and it's been near 100 degrees here this week).
Another got his (awful) girlfriend pregnant, so he's moved in with
her.

To us this is sad, because these are kids we've watched grow up,
and they're mostly wonderful and smart and talented. BUT THEY WERE
NOT ENCOURAGED TO GO TO COLLEGE. As far as the expense, believe me,
with
four kids, it is DEFINATELY not easy figuring out where to come up
with the money for college.

At school, most of my son's classmates are Vietnamese, some Koreans,
many Indians. Their families, like us, believe very strongly in the
value of education (and in particular, the sciences).

Can you see how it might be possible to have a different perspective
than the one you've presented in your paragraph above?

Carol:
> It takes a lot more TRUE GRIT to go your own path and seek the
> TRUTH rather than perpetuate the politically correct notion of current
> academia.

Liza:
I guess it depends on who you are, and where you are coming from, to
be able to say what takes grit and what does not.

Carol:
> but all I can say is that I went through quite a bit to get my degree,

Liza:
:) Congratulations! :)

Carol:
> we often had animal
> rights people protesting outside our labs, and the attitude of the
> profs was "If you're interested in ethics, you don't belong here.
> You belong out there with them."

Liza:
*ALL* the profs? I'm surprised. Usually people at universities are
pretty progresssive types, as a group (after all, they're "you and
me" , right? Just students who never leave school :)  )

Carol:
> I grew up with scientists too.  They're people, and lots of people
> have that passion.

Liza:
Maybe. Just like you find a special passion for the arts among
artists, or a passion for music among musicians, or a passion for
theater among actors, or a passion for sports among basketball
players,  I DO think you find a special passion for science among
scientists, and a special passion for education among those who make
their lives in educational institutions.

Carol:
> There are plenty of
> folks who haven't had the opportunities you and I have had, but still
> share such a love of learning.

Liza:
I agree! :) Just like their are LOADS of supremely talented
musicians who don't make their livings as musicians.

Carol:
> If they can't afford a "legitimate"
> education, if they have to get it at libraries and in their spare
> time, that says nothing whatsoever about the quality of their know-
> ledge.

Liza:
It might, actually. If you've got to do it in your spare time, and
on your own volition, and with whatever happens to be available at
your local library, it's probably  _harder_  to get the same quality
of education. C'mon now.

Carol:
> It does say a lot about their passion, however, and I've
> known precious few who hold "legitimate" degrees who could hold a
> candle to the earnest self-educator in that department.

Liza:
What can I say? You and I know different people. :)

I wish there were people on the list, with college degrees, who just
have no doubt that they just  _love_  what they do (like I do), that
would speak up as examples. Without that, all I can say is I know
_plenty_  of people, with college degrees, who are just on  _fire_
for their chosen field - whether it be a fine arts degree, sports,
allied health, cancer research, math, biology, psychology, dance,
filmmaking, literature  --  What can I say? :D

Carol:
> the worship of "experts" that is promoted so heavily these days.

Liza:
Yes, I agree, I agree. :) "Worship" of "experts"  (meaning, trusting
THEIR thinking above YOUR OWN) is   _not_  a good thing. I agree
wholeheartedly.  ESPECIALLY when it comes to YOUR health!!!  :D

Love Liza
--
[log in to unmask] (Liza May)