Kirt:
> only a couple were in-your-face about it, and they were easy to
avoid.) The  trouble, in part, is that the most obnoxious vegans are the ones you
hear the most,...

Yeah, I suspect this is the case with any group we don't like.  We
don't like 'em because the obnoxious ones are the ones that get our
attention.

Kirt:
> or at least the ones who _I_ hear the most because they
> relentlessly trash me for eating animal foods and/or for calling
others to  support their nutritional rap. (Even Ombodhi takes a beating on the
> raw@mcmuse list!)

Yeah, but just from a few.  And I'm pretty sure Doug's diatribe was yet
another example of his "sense of humor".

Kirt:
> I'm afraid that if the rest of the vegans don't want to
> watch the word become tainted by the behavior of the most vocal
vegans (NFL  for the most part) they may at sometime have to stand up and let
their  tolerance be known.

> Much more personally, this whole thing is outta hand. Years ago, I
started  with the conception that vegans were well-meaning folks trying to
do the  right thing.

And you were right, in most cases   :-)

Kirt:
> But in the year I have been posting online (and to a lessor
> degree in M2M) on the RAF issue (and others, though RAF is
always what gets  the "publicity" and responses), I have seen a much deeper and
troubling  layer to the vegan ideations. Beyond the constant browbeating the
mention  of RAF eating gets me, there are deeply disturbing cultish aspects
to the  whole scene (some of which I described in the post you responded
to: what  do you think of them?).
I think you're overgeneralizing.  But, I can't remember what post
you're talking about.  What were the cultish aspects?

Kirt:
> Whether the prostelytised diet includes RAF or not,
> my ambivilance about raw diets is melting into full-fledged
embarrassment  as I see idealism more than anything else as the main theme or raw
diets,  from fruitarianism to instincto.

Personally, I'm not against idealism.  But maybe you mean something
different than I do by the term.

Kirt:
> I am soon to pull back from my on-line public participation, in large
part  because I am weary.

I can certainly understand this.  But this list is getting pretty
carnivorous.  You seem quite in your element here.  I, on the other
hand am feeling like a fish out of water here.  As far as I know, I'm
the only one left with any vegetarian ideals (not the only veg., just
the only one for reasons other than health).
And I'm getting weary, too.  Not from being blasted, just from
overload.  The volume's too heavy, even when Bodhi's taking a
powder.  The recent death in my family has really driven home to me
how much better so much of my time would be spent interacting with
my family, than trying to sort out which side is more militant, zealous,
bigoted, hostile:  the vegans or those who hate them.
Just when I finally decide this is the day I'm going to unsubscribe from
the lists, lo and behold!  A light volume!       :-)

Kirt:
> (This list is in top form these days and I doubt that I
> could resist at least lurking, but my days of posting informational
stuff  is about over. I get blasted for them more than anything else and I
start to wonder why I bother.)

Really?  From this list?  I don't seem to remember you getting much
blasting here lately, but maybe you're getting private hate mail?

Kirt:
> If I keep trying to do the "right" thing I
> suspect I will end up as bigoted and hateful of anyone associated
with the  word vegan (or even raw!) as many of them now are of me.
=:-O

Kirt:
> People probably get what they ask for in the end. And if they ask
certain  questions, some of the answers are in the archives. Whoopdedo...
You've lost me here.   What do you mean?

Until next time,
and, BTW, thanx for reposting the jokes!     :-)
Cheers,
Martha