Hi Ellie,
I was edified by your thoughtful post...
>In favor of raw vs rare: Less demand on the body's digestive enzymes.
Do you find any support in your reading of which enzymes besides the
hydrolytic might survive the hydrocloric acid present in the stomach during
protien digestion? I especially wonder about lipase in raw fat. The
paleo-dieters are getting good results with a pemmican that is raw dried
meat mixed with melted suet (which hardens into a patty when at room
temperature again). Is melted fat much different in its metabolism than
aged fat? I would love some hard data on this... :/
>In favor of fresh raw vs aged: I'm reading about lysosomes. I assume that
>the hydrolytic enzymes in lysosomes are specific for breaking down the
>specific protein, or whatever, in the cells of that particular tissue.
>The book lists some of the enzymes, but doesn't go into the kinds of
>proteins, etc. in the cell, but it doesn't make much sense that nature
>would do otherwise. This would mean that self-digestion by the live
>enzymes in raw food might be more efficient than relying on digestive
>enzymes, which are needed in the case of cooked meat.
Thanks for the summary. I'm tending to think that Howell was mostly wrong
about enzymes surviving digestion, especially of animal foods, but perhaps
these hydrolytic enzymes are an exception. Still you can read his ideas
using only the notion of the benefits of enzymatic predigestion (in
ripening fruit, aging meat and fish, etc.) and still the main of his ideas
hold up well. We need someone who actually studies this stuff for a living
here, but I'm having trouble believing _anything_ "living" survives the
acidic digestion of meat. It may be that the fully acid (and and likely
destructive of most internal food enzymes) "carnivore" digestion was
evolved in part as an adaptation to parasites.
>AGE formation in
>vivo and in vitro is non-enzymatic and time related, so if it occurs
>during aging, more AGE's might be formed than if the meat is popped into
>the stomach fresh raw.
Keep in mind that "rare meat" as I use the term means mostly raw
inside--thus whatever benefits of raw meat are still quite relevent. I
would say my rare meat is about 80% raw still by analysis (if such an
analysis were actually undertaken).
>About how to tell if food is digested--the squirt method is news to me.
>Someone told me once that if I digested everything, nothing much would
>come out. Quantity not quality made sense to me. Why does whether it is
>firm or loose indicate how much is digested.
I'm talking about food exiting as squirts that are pretty much in the same
condition as they were after chewing. I was surprised at how much feces I
had eating meat--only about half of what I would with fruit and salad, but
still: I was eating no fiber at all for days at a time and further my turds
improved without any fiber.
>Maybe we should weigh in and
>out?
I wonder if that data might be available in rough form from studies of wild
animals. I read a non-Goodall chimp book where the researcher was surprised
at how undigested the feces of the troop was. Perhaps our body is quite
choosy about what it assimilates--it must be given our relative success as
a species on agricultura; and industrial diets.
>Thought is thought whether it is conscious or subconscious. If
>attraction is based on all the senses and integrated by conscious
>cerebral thought, we might need a better term. I'm just playing around
>with words. It's more like 'thoughtful eating', but I don't like that
>much better. Any ideas?
If I had any I might be able to salvage our manuscript ;)
>Some questions: Were you having symptoms of hypoglycemia before the
>experiment? If so, do you attribute the good effects to the loss of those
>symptoms, more than to rare vs raw meat?ch enery as needed, but even calmer
I wonder the same. I didn't know what hypoglycemia felt like and was always
baffled by the crashes reported by Ward, Peter, and others after too much
fruit. I was pretty even, I thought. When eating low carb it was a
revelation though. Now I could compare, and soon realized that I was having
no blood sugar/energy variance at all! Steady as a rock and as much enery
as required. From that vantage point I could see that I was probably
tweaking my blood sugar daily with portions of fruit--nothing dramatic
symptom-wise but I suspect I would burn out eventually and have more
classic hypoglycemic reactions.
>Did you begin eating cooked veggies at the same time?
No, it was about a month and a half before, but I can't remember the last
time I ate steammed veggies--it just wasn't an attraction after the initial
meals. One trouble with all this experimenting is that in trying to change
one thing at a time it becomes a little unbalanced. For example, when I
tried steammed veggies I ate them, say, five times a week at first to see
if I could "get any symptoms" and did that with rare meat too. Kinda like
megadoses with lab rats ;) But in the end I (of course) hope to find a
balance, even if that means I'm all fruit one day all meat the next and so
on. I don't know how to separate the variables and even when I do I am left
with the same querie you have: was it due to lots of meat or little fruit?
Truth told, I was sick of hearing these folks get away with their cooked
paleo diets on the other list. I intended to prove to myself that I would
suffer with cooked meat (which I did find if it is too cooked), but instead
learned the delights of ketosis (I guess).
>How much rare meat and fruit did you eat each day?
A pound or two of meat during the low carb weeks (and maybe some grapefruit
juice in the morning, or a small salad after a steak).
Versus maybe a 1000-1500 calories of juicy fruit during the day and a high
fat salad for dinner (with avos or EV olive oil). And seafood irregularily
(anywhere between a few ounces and a couple pounds, but mostly about a
pound. (Its hard to judge accurately actually...) Being mostly unemployed
during the San Marcos stint meant I would eat more sporatically at times
(ie snack on fruit) than happens when I am teaching with a set lunchtime...
>You mentioned that you could "not eat raw aged meat for more than a
>couple of days in a row." Was this because of loose stools as a sign of
>indigestion, or loss of attraction?
Loss of attraction.
>Most important question: What and how much raw meat or fish were you
>eating each day before the experiment? Was it fresh raw or aged?
It was episodic on the seafood except when I could get it
regularly/economically. I had a lot of salmon and sardines for a couple
months (four nights/week, about a pound a meal (pre-aging weight). We had
no access to meat since I was so picky about it being pastured. And it
usually went like this: when we visited my sister in Denver I would jerk
about ten pounds of buffalo and Coleman. And it would have to last us
indefinitely, so we saved it until we craved it, you know. But very little
meat all told.
>Wouldn't
>you need to compare your results with a period of eating the same amount
>and kind of meat fresh raw rather than rare?
Yeah, but I always thought of aged raw, not fresh raw (yuck). It is
interesting to me that Aajonus needs his pates to make fresh raw
attractive, but perhaps I am just spoiled from years of eating aged seafood
and meat (especially in Peru and NZ).
>I usually have raw meat or
>fish everyday and enjoy most of the benefits you describe
>since your experiment with rare meat.
Perhaps because I am eating 80% raw meat even after I cook it.
>Like you I also find that some days
>I go back to eating a lot of fruit. I think this is based for me on how
>tasty the raw meat or fish was, and also availability. I'm not doing any
>aging. At times, raw but not aged mackerel is so delicious, that I cannot
>imagine aging would make it better. I think this may have to do
>with the fish rather than me.
Interesting. Fresh fish isn't very interesting to me at all. Individual
variance...
>About Diana--and I'd put money on this. Your bambino surely kicked out of
>identification with Diana and to get Melissa to turn your attention to
>the funeral.
Ha!
>Keep kicking
>beautiful child :-)
Melisa told me on the phone today that her midwive couldn't get a heartbeat
cause the sprat was moving all over the place--gonna be a rascal no doubt
;) All bloodwork is great. Even Melisa has some confidence at this point.
Pregnancy is a real attractive time I find... :)
Cheers,
Kirt
PS I moved into a new place after a few days without a phone/email, but now
am living with no furniture for a few weeks. Unless I can get some sort of
desk I will have to limit my email writing--sitting on the floor typing on
a powerbook just isn't cutting it...;)
Secola /\ Nieft
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