Ric:
>There are numerous non-vegan based arguments against dairy, too. Are you
>familiar with John Robbins' work and that of the Drs. (MDs) Klaper,
>McDougal, Cousens, et al, regarding the dairy issue?

Tom:
I have read John Robbins, also Gabriel Cousens. I heard Dr. Klaper talk
at the last World Vegeterian Day in Berkeley, and got bored after about
5 minutes - standard activist stuff. Those named are primarily concerned
with the poor conditions in dairy as agribusiness (conditions that should
not exist), or with the bad health effects of overconsumption of pasteurized
dairy (a fatty food, and not raw), as part of the standard American-style
diet (a fatty diet). In particular, they are not talking about a very
different situation - the consumption of very small amounts of raw dairy, as
part of a raw vegetarian diet, where the consumer actively seeks out dairy
produced in the most humane way available.

Ric:
>Again, the first strong arguments against dairy I encountered were not from
>Vegans...and two not even from vegetarians.  I was personally very familiar
>with the dairy business, both cows and goats, and we also raised our own
>honey for a while, too.  These emotional attachments served to conveniently
>blind me for quite some time to a lot of cogent material presented against
>the benefit of dairy...and even some against honey, too.  My emotional,
>financial, and time investment in dairy was especially mind numbing in
>respect to being open to any arguments against its efficacy.  Kept me from
>quitting the tasty stuff for quite a few years...but, as I mentioned above,
>we were all glad we took the plunge, or should I say, jumped on what later
>turned into the vegan wagon.

Tom:
But I am someone who was a strict vegan for many years, and went back to
raw dairy for health reasons - it has been a positive factor in my health!
Of course, I use only raw dairy, and in small amounts. Let me also say
that I was never impressed much by the ethical vegan arguments (they are
inconsistent), and the zealous nature of some of the ethical vegans I have
encountered, was/is a real turn-off.


Re: possibility of humane dairy production
Ric:
>  That last description matched our scenario, when we kept our
>own goats, but we still had one heck of a problem with the "uneeded" young
>bucks that always appeared among the new crops of baby goats.  Even with
>the benign animal husbandry we exercised, where the loveable critters were
>part of our family (every bit as much as our horses, pig, dog, etc.), there
>was no way to rationalize away the fact that we were quite an imposition on
>the natural inclinations of the goats.

Tom:
I have no information on this from the goat dairy I mentioned in my post. That
dairy lets you visit them - something I intend to do when I have time (perhaps
this Summer?).  I will certainly ask about the disposition/status of male
goats born on the farm.

Ric:
>But, Tom, if you enjoy the milk...which I did...I understand.  It's easy
>for me to remember how I felt.  I quit.  You may never quit...and certainly
>shouldn't...unless you find good reason to do so.  I imagine you'd at least
>make a lot of cows and goats, especially the males, much happier!  :)

Tom:
As mentioned above, I avoided dairy for years, went back to it and found it
a health-positive thing. I would not defend a dairy's mistreatment of male
animals - however, I would point out that organic farmers do not have clean
hands either (their lands are former animal habitat, the animals forcibly
evicted; they also spray with so-called 'natural' pesticides, which can
harm small animals). The world is not perfect, and I don't expect dairy
producers to be perfect, any more than I expect organic farmers to be perfect.
That said, I do think dairy producers should treat their animals in a
humane manner.

I still have not decided whether to post the file mentioned in my previous
post(s), or to work on it to make it better. The current file is nice and
concise - a little over 100 lines, but plenty of additional information could
be added to it. This weekend, beginning with today (Friday) will be super
hectic for me, so I won't have a chance to work on it for a while. Anyway,
will think about that some more.

Tom Billings
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