Just a note:  The post quoted below made it look as if the words
quoted within it were mine.  They were not.  I don't know why my
address ([log in to unmask]) was kept in there at all.

                                           -- Carol

> >>In a message dated 2/27/99 5:18:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> >>[log in to unmask] writes:
> >
> >
> >I think some of the problem with some of the human reaction to killing may
> >be a bit nuerotic in nature.
>
> axel:
>
> for some really weird reason, many, many people do not "feel" like killing
> animals, or that killing is ok. now of course you can say it is for this or
> that, but who knows. we can make really interesting theories for ever. some
> people feel they have a spiritual part. also an emotional being or body. on
> many levels it makes a lot of sense NOT to kill sentient, intelligent beings
> that are SO similar to us in many ways. on another levels, like health, it
> might make sense to eat animal products. but that is all there is about it.
> i do not buy any hunter instinct stuff.  i know this list is about food
> specially, but still i feel like sharing how i see things. lately i am
> starting to sense that there has to be a way to be vegan and really healthy
> in this world. there has to be a way to work it out. i mean, it makes sense
> at ALL levels except that some people need animal products for their health!
> this is something.
>
> > This maternal
> >instinct can be generalized to a degree, but only a minority of humans seem
> >to take it to the extreme of "all life should never be killed by me" and
> >then further generalize that to "all life  should never be killed by=
>  anyone"
> >and further to "I am more advanced because I would never kill".
>
> not wanting to kill sentient beings is a "maternal instinct"?
> it might be for some, but you can not apply it to all people that refrain
> from killing animals or not participating indirectly in such killing thru
> buying animal products.
> why so many people find horrible the killing of animals? are some of them,
> as you say, "a bit neurotic"? give me a break!
> neurotic for not killing animals? come on!  it is absolutely HORRIBLE, IMHO,
> to KILL an animal! have you done it, kirt? how many people that defend
> animal products on any level can actually go and kill animals? not many,
> right? i know, i know, this is said again and again, some might say "vegan
> brainwhasing", etc.=20
>
> =20
> >The trouble is, at least for humans, is that we are sculpted by evolution
> >to be omnivores and, in general, suffer without animal foods.=20
>
> this seems to be the case, but it does not make sense on all the other=
>  levels.
> a part of me just do not accept that god, because i do believe in god, can
> create this conflict between many people=B4s ethics and their biological
> needs. it does not make sense.=20
> also, are you all in this mailing list so scientific? is science the best
> way to find truth for you?=20
>
> >Further, humans probably have evolved a degree of sex specialization (male
> >hunter; female gatherer--certainly not a strict thing but as a
> >generalization it is probably true enough). With food sharing, it becomes
> >even more complicated. Females eat animal foods but need not hunt them.
> >Further, females probably have a heavier dose of maternal instinct than men
> >(in general).
> >
> >And even further, the human brain can abstract in any direction. So that,
> >maternal feelings can be codified into rules of conduct which apply to--not
> >only one's own offspring and those of one's "tribe"--all mammals,
>
> IMHO, being disgusted with the idea of killing animals, or watching an
> animal being killed for human consumption, or not wanting to kill animals
> yourself, is not a maternal instinct codified into a rule of conduct. it can
> also be seen as a natural spiritual emotional part of many human beings that
> intuitively do NOT like killing AT ALL.=20
>
> >flavors of "killing is bad" fundamentalism.=20
>
> it might not be in your ethics, but is not necesarily fundamentalism. it is
> a very valid and real posture that many human beings share.=20
>
> >Saying we shouldn't kill for food, is to my mind, just as perverted as
> >saying we _should_ kill our kids. Both are extreme distortions of our
> >nature IMO.=20
>
> you mean our physical nature. our nature is not only our body. there might
> be a way to be well without animal products. maybe highly mineralized
> vegetable food, lots of sunshine and living outside and doing lots of
> exercise? it could be.=20
>
> Calling either a process of refining or perfecting evolution,
> >or an experiment in high morality and spirituality just makes it more
> >perverted IMO.
>
> please clarify. one thing is that you do not think that veganism is
> appropiate for health reasons, but another thing is that it is perverted.
> why is it perverted?
>
> >There will always be those who respond with the "but wouldn't it be nice if
> >we could see all of life as our family?" The question makes about as much
> >sense to me as "but wouldn't it be nice if we could kill every living thing
> >on the planet?"
>
> i really do not know if you are serious or just kidding. it sounds like you
> do not take seriously people=B4s desire for a more peaceful and harmonic
> world. is this the case? do you have dreams for a better world, with less
> violence and cruelty?
> honestly, it sounds like you are making fun of this. respecting other
> beings, not hurting other beings, not causing suffering to beings with
> capacity to feel just like you is not a stupid nonsense, you know?
> also, just curious, what are your ethics? what things do you think are good
> and bad? do you think the world can change for the better? if so, how?
>
> axel