Hi all,
some clarifications and some new things.

Kirt:
>Huh??? What farmed animal is not raised on cultivated fields?

Okay if these fields are instincto quality themselves. Not okay if animals=20=
have
access to commercial/organic fields. I didn't visit the Chateau Montrame bu=
t
I think their animals meet these criteria. Garanties of Orkos never turned=20=
out
to be wrong since I am knowing them (more than three years).

Kirt:
>excuse for it's poor track record. In any situation it can be argued that
>the problem is that the RAF was not high enough quality (since very few
>RAF, probably none! _could_ be raised according to the above stated
>standard, and all wild animals are suspect because by definition we don't
>know the details of their diet).

Not in   a n y   situations but in the most, we find in our cooked world.
Indeed I was unable to find a source of instincto quality RAF in Germany
upto now. I regret that but can't change it so far. My contribution to a gl=
obal
change consists only of those tiny amounts of meat I buy from Orkos instead
from commercial sources.

Kirt:
>Indeed, completely "scratch-fed" chickens who feed themselves from a lush
>orchard appear to be against the ORKOS standards.
I didn't get that. Mind to explain that to me? (use private mail not to
trouble the others for this point)

Kirt:
>... I, however, see the
>additions of limited raw grain for a chicken as a good thing. Further, I
>look for the least "topped off" animals available.
..

I understand your situation. You are in the position to choose the least ba=
d
RAF instead of getting really good one. The problem with the least bad choi=
ce
can be that it is   c o n s i d e r a b l y   worse than the best quality (=
if
the distance in quality is so large).
When advantage eating a certain food equals the disadvantage the bad parts
of the food do to you we are at a kind of break-even-point. Food that is
worse than this might be useless.
Another (similar) definition: if the amount of detox you can do with a food
equals the amount of intox the food brings to you, the break-even-point is
reached.

Kirt:
>What RAF exactly do Europeans eat? I can't imagine ORKOS could abide by it=
s

The other german instinctos I know of have given up buying RAF from other
sources than Orkos - like me. Meat is terrible expensive in Germany, theref=
ore
the prices of Orkos don't add much. And seafood of Orkos mostly is cheaper
than commercial one (don't know how they manage that). Eggs are perhaps 10%
more expensive than the most expensive commercial ones.

Kirt:
>Yeah, but most poultry do _better_ with the addition of some limited grain.
>Wheat is probably best avoided, but most birds will eat wild grains with
>relish and are well-equipped to digest them.

Additional feeding with instinctive quality grains is allowed by Orkos cri-
teria (except for wheat.)

Kirt:
>While I make great effort to obtain the best RAF possible, I am weary of
>the elite-ism which seems part and parcel of instincto (not you personally
>Stephan ;). The foods are _expensive_ and often flown from the other side
>of the planet.   And then if something goes wrong, it is because the food
>is not perfect. How convenient and unfalsifyable...

Instincto itself shows not much elite-ism to me but if it comes to the
quality of your supply you easily might find yourself to be in an elite if
you earn enough.
Our local instincto group calls it "the financial stop" ;)
Hearing of the problems of other germans with instincto and digging into
depth it turned out in app. 99% of all cases that they had basic problems
with the quality of their food. So please don't be troubled if I insist
on this question to be solved.
Yes, compromises with your food supply are unavoidable in our world.

Kirt:
>instincto could do with some humility on the subject, instead of
>ever-trumping the (lack of) quality of one's food. It is all a bit much to=
o
>hear the excuses/tweeks proposed to explain the poor track record. I wonde=
r

Indeed there are a lot of excuses:
- poor food supply
- degeneration of human beings that can't be made undone immediately
- decades of cooked food you and me ate
- overall environmental pollution

I don't consider the instincto record to be poor. Perhaps I should collect=20=
all
the problems I saw disappear after changing to this type of nutrition. Will
be a difficult job, especially the minor ones. Will be a long long list.
And I should count all improvements I have watched. Will also be a long lis=
t.
And this applies to lots of others I have spoken with.

Perhaps we should report more about these positive experiences than about
the severe failures we watched. But nearly nobody reports about his/her
good health so proudly. This is considered not to be worth to mention.
Only if things go worse people start to complain and mention it.

To me instinctive nutrition is the best discovery I have made in my life.
I will continue with it, learn more (e.g. about herbs, insects) and will
try an instinctive lifestyle.

Positive instinctive greetings

Stefan