Jr:
>>bob told me to resubscribe them so i did you would think i would have
more confidence >>in my own decisions oh well

On the contrary you should be applauded for having the courage to admit
that your judgment could have been better.

>>as for this i think bob is right the list should be free
>>there should be a place in the known universe where anyone can speak
>>and i think i should take bobs advice
>>so the list will be free from my control and leadership

You can define your leadership style as open, easy-going & non-interventive
but it is a cop-out & hypocrisy to say that it does not exist especially if
that means turning a blind eye to abusive and un-civil behavior.

>>i have always been a bad leader

The ability to be honest and forthright about ones shortcomings is one of
the hallmarks of a great leader.  I am so bad I have to go confession twice
a week. ;-)

>>i am surprised that the list became as successful as it did
>>probably because i hadn't tried to moderate it at all

I agree - the more free flowing the better.

>>but lately i have become unhappy with the list and it seems to have
>>hurt the spirt, not helped it so i am sorry

On the contrary I think you should have been more direct in sharing your
misgivings with your list.  Then they could have been resolved easier
instead of building up.

>>i will not stop anyone from subscribing
>>i will not tell people what to do
>>i am sure that many of you, if not most
>>will like it better this way

Yes, but this requires a high sense of responsibility that not everybody is
mature enough to be able to honor.  That is when a responsible leadership
has its place.

>>the problem is that i wanted something different from the list
>>i wanted the list to turn into a support group
>>something similar to what i had grown to depend on with
>>12 step meetings and it doesn't seem that the two kinds of lists
>>can be the same right now so this list can stay anarchy

A 12 step program for cooked food eaters?  Hi, my name is Peter and I am a
cooked food eater.  Hi Peter!! ;-)  Seriously though, with a little
concerted effort I think that both qualities can quite easily be housed
under the same roof.

>>the only thing i will do is to subscribe people when they request it
>>and unsubscribe people when they have the wrong syntax
>>or when their account is not working

It is tempting to follow your foot steps. :-)

>>i suppose in the extreme
>>there might be a time when everyone on the list
>>    might ask me to take some action
>>and that might be a different story
>>but that hasn't come close to happening
>>and i doubt it will

The problem here is that if you wait for a consensus in a time of crisis or
on-going conflict by then many of your best & most sensitive subscribers
will have left the list. Who wants to be part of a list that has become a
frivolous battle zone?

>> am sorry for being so controlling you are on your own.

"Controlling" can be fine if it is based on integrity & sound principle.

David Mayne:
>I agree about respecting his privacy, and I apologize, jr, for bringing
>this issue up in the first place.

No harm done. Keeping up the free flow of information is important. By
informing us of his decision to dismiss three people from his list you only
passed on a piece of relevant information.  If you wanted to go completely
by the book, you could have paraphrased rather than just posting the
announcement verbatim but since you had just been kicked off the list, it
is natural that you were easy on protocol. :-)

>-Having run a list before myself, I realize the amount of time and
>effort it takes, and the difficulties encountered - bounced mail
>from full mailboxes or bad addresses, "me too" and "thanks" posts
>with added content nor supporting context, disrespect, disagreements,
>and flamers. raw is jr's list, he is certainly entitled to run it
>in the way that he sees fit, and I will respect and abide by any decisions
>that he makes. I can see why Dave stood up for jr before when I
>questioned jr's directness, and will not offer any more words
>critical of jr at this juncture.

I fail to see what the hassles of running a list has to do with being direct.
As a list owner Jr has at times been very forthright about his feelings and
in that sense direct but in the meaning of accounting for his
actions/opinions in relation to a given set of easily interpretable
principles, he would not last five minutes on a high school debating team.
;-)

Dave Karas:
>>>I think, in his eyes, you continued the thread after he had asked to end
it.

>Yes, I made one more post after he requested me to end it - guilty
>as charged. However, that one post was a follow up to NFL themselves,
>as they made their "Response from NFL" post (also after jr's moratorium).
>Indeed I disobeyed jr, but so did NFL, and this was their only significant
>response to the plagiarism issue that we got out of them. I apologize
>for breaking jr's silence on this issue, but not for the content of
>my response to NFL.

And may I add that the NFL thread had not been going on for very long, your
contributions were contrary to NFL & Co civil & constructive, there were
not any clear list guidelines for you to follow and that JR's request for
silence seen in this context was arbitrary & based on emotion with little
verifiable content.  And most important the outcome has been very positive
for everyone involved to say the least. :-)  However, as Jr has shown,
confession can be a very powerful tool for healing but also seductive and
addictive in its tempting call to avoid accountability. :-/

>I kind of liked Liza's take on this issue, where she stated that she
>had gotten the book pulled off of two local bookstore shelves due to
>the p word, and I feel inclined to do the same here.

I do not wish to get more involved in this issue than I already have but I
do hope that others will follow up on Liza's good example.

>My hats off to you Dave as well - much appreciated.

Indeed. Most of the work that Dave does is invisible yet without his
dedicated efforts, we would not have this great forum.

I am not sure who:
>>>> It somewhat surprises me that he kicked off Liza as well.

David Mayne:
>Well, I became known amongst some as a "mailing-list terrorist" for
>posting on the NFL, and I did not see that type of reaction against
>your posts, Liza, so that is why I was surprised. You appeared to have
>some meaningful conversations on a variety of topics with others on
>raw, so I figured it would be harder for jr to justify kicking you off.

And a mystery as she is so funny and good-hearted as well.

Tom Billings:
>>>>>Perhaps the raw movement is splitting - no big deal, as it is in portions
>>>>>already - into two parts: a realist/honest wing, and the fanatic/cult
wing.
>>>>>Will the cult wing build a commune, "Fruit-town", in San Diego?  :-)
>>>>>If so, will they force their members to attend drills where they must
>>>>>drink grape kool-ade?  :-)

David Mayne:
>Funny, Tom ! Yes, I can think of very few movements where everyone
>stood together (save for that cocacola commercial where everyone
>keeps company in "perfect harmony") (-:

San Diego is not just raw vegan territory.  The Price Pottenger Nutritional
Foundation has been in the vicinity for a couple of decades, the zone and
low carb diets are big down there and Aajonus has been hosting several
events in the area. Just a few weeks ago six of us from the LA raw food
support group went down to La Jolla for a raw potluck with Aajonus as the
speaker.  Forty or so people attended.

>Can these two groups coexist on one mailing list, or more broadly,
>in one diverse world ?  If we keep the spirit of civility in mind,
>I would hope so.

I have tried but is not always easy.  Especially as it is not just an issue
about civility but also about content and accountability.  A list can
easily become diluted and void of relevance if not held up to any
standards.  Luckily, in that respect this list is a breeze. :-)

Best, Peter
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