Hi Ward,

Thanks for your great thinking, and interesting ideas and musings.

Also, thank you especially for being so logical, and for catching me in
illogical parts of my thinking (and so graciously!!, and with a terrific sense
of humour to boot!!). Because of your smart critiqueing, this discussion is
very helpful to me

Well....I'd like to say that I know, that you know, that I know,  that you
know, that I know that there are both commonatlities and differences between
people .......... but I won't. ;-))

<< I can appreciate where you're coming from Liza in speaking out against the
tendency to label people,  >>

Yes, its that tendency that I would like to contradict. Because of this
tendency, I guess I would rather see people err on the side of assuming too
much uniqueness, then on the side of overlooking uniqueness by
overgeneralizing and labeling (not that you were doing that in your post, its
just that's the point I was trying to make).

But, yes, I agree that there are loads of common patterns among groups that
can be useful to be aware of.  Like, for instance, there are guy things and
gal things. (Like, for example, you'all like action movies and we like love
stories. Y'all like the sports channel and we like home shopping. Y'all leave
dirty socks and we pick 'em up. Y'all marry for love and we marry for money.
Y'all do bench presses and we do thigh adductions. Y'all like loads of sex,
and we like loads of commitment. Y'all drink beer and we drink wine.  Y'all
know how to ignore how you feel to get the job done, and we think we're
supposed to get right down there into our feelings and let them dictate our
actions. Y'all like your shoes on, and we like to go barefoot. Y'all like dark
honey and brown bananas, and we like light honey and yellow bananas. Y'all
like science and we like language arts. Y'all like toilet seats UP and we like
them DOWN (dammit).  Y'all like to keep your wrists straight, and we like to
let ours dangle carelessly. So yeah I definately agree that there are
important grains of truth in every categorization.

Like the commonalities that Blacks share as a group, or that Whites share as a
group, or the behaviors and feelings common to children as distinct from
adults, or senior citizens as a unique group, or what Asians share with other
Asians, or Chicanas, or Indian immigrants, or people who have lost a loved
one, or Blind people, or fat people, or twins, or people raised very poor, or
princes, or sons of medical doctors, or cancer survivors, or computer-science
professionals, or food service workers, or Jews, or women working in the skin
trade, or Gentiles, or basketball players, or kids raised on Welfare, or rich
kids, or Generation X ers, or Baby-Boomers, or people with Aids, or
professional jazz musicians, or Vietnam Vets, or health-care professionals, or
fruitarians, or red-heads, or members of the Henderson family, or New Yorkers,
or citizens of the teeny town of Eden, West Virginia.

Each of these groups shares some special characteristics, personality traits,
strengths and weaknesses, issues that they face in society, etc. which are
specific to their group - and, I agree, its very very important and most
useful to be aware of these.

<<  are you sure you aren't going a little overboard here, >>

I ALWAYS go overboard.  ;-))    I LIKE to <grin>.   Its FUN.    :-))

No, just kidding. But yeah, I probably did go overboard - sounds like me.
Sorry about that. I like to be SURE I'm making my point. ("Subtle as a ton of
bricks," my mother used to say).

<< and perhaps reacting against something (I'm not sure what) in saying that
there is very little useful to be found in saying there are not commonalities
between human beings and their behavior? >>

Well, what I might be reacting to is what seems to me to be more of a tendency
in the psychology world to want to jump to quick categorizations and
simplifications, and to just not want to have to pay enough attention to what
is really going on with each unique individual. Probably because in daily
practice, that approach would require too much time, or resource, or
alertness, or creative thinking on the part of the psychologist. So
individuality is often entirely overlooked, under our current mental health
system. And sometimes (mostly, in fact, under our current oppressive system)
with serious consequences for the "patient."

In my opinion, its important to both be aware of all the "groups" that the
individual belongs to and the particular issues and challenges facing members
of that group; and, at the same time, to be aware of the complete uniqueness
of each individual.

<<  I'm not interested in labeling, but in seeing the "patterns that
connect.">>

Ward, I'm sure we probably completely agree. I, too, think that the patterns
are very important to be aware of, and do help a lot in the effort to
understand people.

<< One of the reasons I am interested in fanaticism is not just to find some
labels to stigmatize others with, >>

Gosh! I HOPE that's not how I sounded. See what I mean about my not yet
knowing how to write on the internet? I certainly didn't mean to sound like I
was accusing you of looking for ways to stigmatize others. Yuk. So sorry if
that's how I came off. ;-(

<<  Are you sure you aren't perhaps playing devil's advocate here a little out
of proportion to the suggestions being made, for a personal reason or some
other experience unrelated to this specific discussion? >>

Well, maybe it has bothered me when I've noticed on the internet when grossly
unaware statements are made, which are supposedly about "all people," and
don't take into account that there are groups not represented, or issues not
represented, or individual differences are not taken into account. I've seen a
lot of such statements made regarding dietary requirements, and a lot of
supposedly blanket universal statements about human nature. I will say that in
my opinion, our List here is the very best by far in that regard. I find this
to be a very thoughtful and aware list, and usually here, if nonsense gets
posted, it is  corrected in very short order. But in other places on the
internet the obliviousness is often unbearable. So, maybe that is the reason
for my overreaction. ;-)  My apologies - it wasn't directed at you, just used
your great post as a convenient spring-board. <blush> <smacks on the head>;

 << One common denominator in all the examples that you gave is the
observation  that we are shaped by our experience. ...... it implies that there is some
sort of psychological "susceptibility"--or "patterns" to use a more neutral
word--we may share that predispose us to become marked or conditioned by our
experience. >>

I certainly think that this is true. I don't think, though, that I would call
it a susceptibility, since that implies that it is some sort of a weakness in
our makeup, when I in fact see this as one of the key ways that human
intelligence, in its awesome power, is able to learn from experience, and
apply flexible, creative, new, pro-survival responses to every new situation
encountered. This is in contrast to the more rigid intelligence of other life
forms, which can only respond rigidly with the same response (in varying
degrees, depending on the species), no matter what new challenges the
environment might present.

Am I mistaken in saying that I sense a new trend in the world of psychology to
try to relate all troubles of the mind to biochemistry, or to chemical
imbalances, with an emphasis on finding magic bullets (in the form of drugs,
or hormone concoctions, and so forth) that will "balance" the chemicals in the
brain? It seems to me that I have noticed this recently, and I don't like the
looks of it. It makes me get skiddish when I see a word like the one you used
above, "predispose," because I have seen this same word used in the
psychological literature to suggest that certain individuals have a genetic,
neurochemical "predisposition" towards all sorts of things in life (such as
Depression (the big one), violence, alcoholism or substance abuse of any kind,
eating disorders ......in fact I've even seen this hypothesis applied to such
things as success at business, artistic talent, an especially giving and
loving nature, and so on.

Again, this strikes me as an attempt, again, to find simple answers to the
infinite complexity of the human organism, and in particular, to the
mysterious power of the human brain. (Please note that I am not suggesting
that YOU said or meant to imply any of this - its just the word "predisposed"
which you used, that I've seen used improperly elsewhere).

Furthermore, it makes me nervous, because I can see it leading to another
attempt, (yet again - every so often this same attempt is made, each time with
a slightly different illogical premise supporting it), an attempt to say that
certain individuals, or worse, groups of individuals, are genetically or
chemically or physically or whatever "predisposed" to certain things. This has
been used many times against blacks, to supposedly "scientifially" support the
outlandishly racist contentions that blacks are as a group genetically less
intelligent, or genetically better at sports, or ggenetically natural dancers,
or prone to violence, and many other outrages. The same dumb pseudo-scientific
argument fueled the Holocaust, and has been used as an argument to support the
inferior status of females, and in many other hurtful ways.  So I don't like
that word, "predisposed" or the concept that certain groups are locked in
"physically", for any reason, to certain irrational inhuman behaviors.

Again - I'm not saying that you have said this. I just don't like where such
an assumption could take us.

I have old-fashioned views (and I think more intuitively logical) to explain
why people do the things that they do  -  why they get depressed, or become
violent, or turn to drink or drugs or the myriad of other addictions
(including eating disorders and addictions). And I have old-fashioned ideas
about why some people are able to achieve great success and happiness, or
display great artistic talent, or mathematical ability, or turn into a Mother
Theresa.

My views on matters of the human spirit are very similar to the Hygienic views
on matters of the physical body, which is why the underlying philosophy of
Hygiene appeals to me, I guess.

<< Of course, one can posit that each person may have a totally unique
susceptibility, in which case, again, it would mean that our experience in
dealing with other human beings is nigh useless because the lessons we learn
from dealing with any one human being are so unique they don't help us gain
any wisdom that we can apply in dealing with another. I find that very
implausible.>>

Me too. I hope I've explained my thoughts a little more clearly.

<<   However, the other thing about the examples that were given (or any
examples that could be given, actually) is that in and of themselves they
don't really explain why some people become fanatics under those life
circumstances and others don't. >>

Well, I've had people say to me things like "Why did I turn out this way, when
my sister grew up in the same family, same school, same everything, and yet
turned out entirely differently?"  The answer, in my opinion, is that since
life is organic, and  changes from moment to moment, the circumstances under
which you were born are entirely unique and different from the circumstances
and surrounding environment into which any other person was ever born, and
likewise, how they grow up. The parents' lives are entirely different as life
goes on, the world outside is different, everything is different. And most
importantly, every new baby born is totally different from the last one - no
two human beings have ever been even remotely alike - and that is to me mind-
bogglingly awesome and wonderful, and explains mysteries like the one you
presented above.

So that is a long answer to your question about why two people in the same
circumstances don't both turn into fanatics. The answer lies in the complete
and perfect uniqueness of every individual.

<<  ....... every example you named (which I loved because several of them we
probably all know just who you are talking about :-) ) >>

HAH!!  ;-)) Glad you noticed!!  ;-))

<<  When I am talking commonalities.......I'm talking about things at a level
underneath that: just general psychological predispositions or
"traits"--perhaps even
 just very vague emotions or emotional patterns like fear or greed or egotism,
a feeling of extreme us/them separation between self/others, etc.,>>

Oh!! THAT'S what you're looking for!! Okay, now I understand.

Well I would say, that FEAR is most certainly there, since I haven't met a
person yet, who, once you scratch the surface, does not turn out to be
absolutely, totally, completely, mind-bogglingly, awesomely, shiveringly
SCARED STIFF. Usually this feeling is so chronic that people don't even
realize how it would feel to not be so scared - its almost unconscious. But
fear is something we all share in today's world - no question.

But, you are wondering what common feelings, or patterns, might produce a
fanatic?

I would think that probably feelings of urgency (as in, "Have to Get The
Message Out There Now Before .........(their own version of the apocalypse)
).

And probably feelings of powerlessness, motivating the fanatic to try to feel
powerful by attempting to have control over SOMETHING, anything. Or better
yet, to be able to show enough power to maybe even influence others to become
fanatics, too.

And I would guess probably feelings of hopelessness and desperation, where
fanatically adhering to the obsession seems like the one and only lifeline, or
the only way to survive, (as in the very-familiar-to-us way that some people
get about food, where what might really be going on is that they are afraid of
death, or afraid of hospitals, or afraid of pain, or afraid of disability or
old-age, and so try DESPERATELY to ward off these things by fanatically
latching on to food as the one answer that gives hope.)

I have seen many people who are battling eating disorders, or people fighting
addictions, often replace the unhealthy behavior with a fanatical attachment
to something more healthy, like excercise, or a fanatical obsession with
healthy eating. Maybe the person does not yet have the resource required to
resolve the real underlying life issue yet, but he or she gives it does the
most intelligent thing possible under circumstances, by substituting a healthy
alternative for a life-threatening addiction.

I can think of lots more, if you're interested. The examples that come to mind
are real-life examples that I have seen, and real motivations for fanatical
behavior in people I've worked with over the years.

<<  One observation here. It seems we may agree that fanatics share certain
commonalities in BEHAVIOR, though perhaps your objection is to the idea they
may share common psychological MOTIVATIONS. >>

Yes, that's exactly it!  ;-) Glad you're such a clear thinker, and a diplomat.
And, after this helpful discussion, I guess I would have to say that people
probably have both common reasons AND individual reasons for both their
motivations as well as  for their behaviors.

<< However, again, we may be miscommunicating due to terminology here. The
examples of motivations that you gave above focused on what I would call the
"proximate" (immediate, direct) instigating cause of their behavior--unique
life circumstances. That's not what I'm talking about when using the word
motivation. Again, perhaps the word "psychological traits" or
"predispositions" would be better......>>

Ugh!! S h i v e r.  There's that chilly word again..........  =:O

<< As I mentioned above, if a person doesn't have a certain
"susceptibility(ies)"  >

B r r r r r r r rrrr.    I can just see this train of thought going somewhere
not-so-good. Uh-oh.........

<< ........... This strongly suggests there are indeed underlying
psychological traits that matter very much. Is it really so far-fetched to
assume people may share an emphasis on certain psychological traits if
behavior is similar? >>

Well, no-o-o-oooo, I guesssss.......

But I would probably say that if we are talking about irrational, "warped"
behavior (as opposed to behavior that is inherently human, like loving
cooperation, or creative and enthusiastic problem solving), that if we are
talking about something that is clearly yukko distressed behavior, then, the
"psychological traits" that you are referring to have been installed by yukko
distressing life experiences.

Again, the analogy of the Hygienic way to think about the health of the body
comes to mind. That is, if you just leave the body (or the mind, in our case)
alone, give it what it needs to thrive (which in our case is love, attention,
care, joy, respect) and don't overload it with toxins ( in our case hate,
abuse, fear, misinformation, confusion, disrespect, stifling of the spirit,
boredom, threat of physical harm, horrors of war, gosh this is bad - we could
go on and on for years here - I think I'll stop right now) ......
anyway....... now I lost my train of thought..........where was I?

Oh yeah - if you just leave nature to do its great thing, and don't interfere,
but allow it to flourish and reach perfection, and KNOW that it will, then -
what a miracle!! - it will do just that!! I believe that the mind and spirt,
just like the body, has all the intelligence it needs to flourish and thrive
and reach its utmost potential. It is just that we are constantly getting in
the way of this process; and interfering in every kind of creative way we can
think up ( ugh ).

<<   "Most" problems??? :-) Ahem, Liza, being kinda categorical here, ain't
we?
 Now really, you've got to quit that! :*) >>

AAAaaaa!! Caught me!!!! Hmmpf   Rmmpf  rmppff.  snort. ;-/

<<  .... if I share a core psychology or core subset of psychology with other
human beings, then if there is something in them that looks so unique I can't
fathom it, maybe I need to think again and look within myself a little deeper
to find our common humanity.>>

Yes, that sounds right. I am not aware of doing that on any conscious level,
but I'm sure I  probably do, when I'm trying to understand perplexing people.
But sometimes I know that what I must do, is just listen alertly enough to
them talk about who they are. And if I really pay attention, I am able to
hear, or see, what it is that they are about - what they love, what they are
afraid of, what happened to them, where they can't see reality clearly, where
they would love some help, all those things.

<< To me this can only help deepen connectedness with others.>>

Yes, this is certainly true for me. To me, there is NOTHING that comes even
remotely close to the fascination I have with people. Not the most awesomely
majestic mountain, or the most passionate music I could hear, moves me and
thrills me as much as closeness with another person.

<< .... have thoughts, ideas, feelings, experiences, etc., pop up inside that
if acted out could lead to the full range of human behavior including murder
and all the rest on the one hand, to inspiration and altruism on the other?>>

Yes!! That is so well said, Ward. Yes, I believe that that is how we are - we
come fully equipped with the full range of emotions. I don't believe any
person is created as the "stripped" model (as in cars), we are all the
"stacked" model, with all the features intact. Maybe a little dusty, but
intact.

<< You have great style and a great crap-detector for keeping people honest
online. It's like a breath of fresh air. >>

Thank you thank youthankyou thankyouthank you!!!!  ;-))  Much appreciated!!
;-)) ;-)) Really nice words!!

Well, this is a great discussion. I've found myself thinking about it at night
in my sleep, and at odd times during the day. You're a terrific thinker,
comprehensive, and original.  I'm very much looking forward to your reply!

Lots of Love,  Liza
[log in to unmask] (Liza May)