Hi Liza,

> I've re-posted my paragraph above, so I can refer to it. You see I
> mention a number of factors besides those that you have referred to.
> Without getting too lengthy here, I'll just say that there's much
> evidence linking all of the factors I've mentioned above, with
> remission of cancer. Sleep, smoking, stress, the ELIMINATION of
> toxic foods or substances from the diet (as opposed to just changing
> the form of the food from cooked to raw) - all these as well as the
> others I've mentioned above, have been shown to have a direct
> influence on the body's ability to recover from cancer.
>
> I see you make the distinction raw "plant" foods. As a vegan, I'm
> curious to hear your thoughts regarding evidence regarding our long
> history of meat eating, of which you can get a great overview at
> BeyondVeg (have you taken a look yet?).

Yes, I have been to the site and have been reading the articles. Are
you saying I'm a vegan? Definitely not! I am saying that on
short-term,
a diet of just raw plant-based foods can clean out when other very
healthy diets cannot. It depends on the particular case and condition
whether and how long a raw plant-based diet may be useful. The problem
is we almost all have a long-term history of SAD type eating, and all
the old stuff that accumulates is a good thing to get rid of. If we
ate
very healthy, HG-style, all our lives, we would have little or no need
for special clean-outs or purges.

However, here is an interesting tidbit - a  coworker of mine from
Cameroon grew up with this type of healthy traditional food (she has
the rugged frame and good teeth to prove it), but she caught malaria
as a child. She was cured by seeing an herbal doctor who prescribed
strong, bitter herbs to clear out the disease. She was appalled when
she went to Engand and found everything was loaded with sugar!

> As far as cassia, I have yet another (probably naiive) question
> regarding this very treasured substance. Outside of the additives,
> what is the difference between taking cassia every morning (a la
> instincto) and taking Ex-Lax every morning? They are both senna.

I can't tell you cause I don't know. It would be reasonable to think
a dependence could develop with Cassia as with Ex-Lax with continued
use. But if intermittent use dislodges some old toxins that might
otherwise remain for a lifetime, that can be a very good thing. I
have used these from time to time, and also have tried Dr. Shulze's
Intestinal Cleanse #1, and have not developed any dependency on them.

> > Liza, you seem to belittle the benefits of raw foods just as much
> > to the extreme as JR excessively touts them as a guarantee of
> > health.

> If I seem to be doing that, then maybe it's because I feel it's
> necessary when the conversation seems to take on undertones (or
> overtones) of irrational and inaccurate assumptions about the
> abilities of raw food.

I understand what you are saying, but in the right situation in
conditions of excess or buildup, raw vegetable foods and stopping
meat can work wonders, while other very healthy and probably more
balanced diets over the long run won't be able to perform the
'rescue mission'. In other cases like mine, one probably can't go
very long without the animal proteins without feeling weakened
(though people will try to tell me otherwise of course).

> > None of this is to say that 100% raw vegan is the best long-term
> > diet, at all
>
> Good! Great! I'm glad we agree.
>
> It seems odd to me that both you and Mark seem to agree about this,
> and yet you don't want to see it expressed outright. Why is that?
> Do you feel there's a danger that lurkers might get the wrong
> impression altogether, and stop eating any raw foods? Or is it
> something else?

I don't follow. What is it that I don't want to see expressed? I've
got nothing to hide.

> > (although I also can't discount a few individuals being able to
> > make it work very well for years,
>
> Yes, that is true. But of course, in life, you can always find
> SOMEBODY doing a certain thing. But again, take a look (if you
> haven't already) at BeyondVeg discussions about the long-term
> success rates for this (and the amount of dishonesty to cover up
> "cheating"!).

I am aware of these discussions, but they don't apply to me at this
time - but if I came to believe that raw-veganism was the right thing
for me for more than a short time, to provide a more dramatic attempt
to clean out - they might. I know how hungry I got after just 1 week
on a raw-vegan cleanse last year - I don't know how people can do it
for a real long time unless they are just living off and dissolving
all their excess!

>
> > and short term at least, certainly can be wonderful for certain
> > conditions as with Mark - where a similar diet mostly cooked
> just does not
> > have the same effects).
>
> How would you KNOW this? Mark didn't try it with a "similar diet
> mostly cooked," did he? You know, the "placebo effect" is a
> profoundly important factor in human healing.

It is my sense from my years of taking in people's experiences on the
Net. The mostly cooked, vegetarian diet (Macro or other variants like
Ornish or MacDougall) despite the hype rarely seems to work
particularly
well for healing disease or improving health, compared to benefits
from
other non-SAD diets, from my observations and what people report. What
I'm talking about are cleansing and rejuvenating effects. I mean,
seldom
does someone go on a macro-type diet and feel a sense of rejuvenation,
but it happens quite often on a mostly raw diet. Again, as I clearly
stated, I'm talking about certain conditions (not all). I used to
browse on a veggie forum when I was interested in the issue, on
Compuserve, and was looking for people who said they were feeling
noticeably better health-wise on the veggie diet as opposed to
non-veggie. I seldom found them, UNLESS the form of veggie diet
was mostly or all-raw. But I also always found people reporting
improvements on low-carb and candida diets. Funny that people rarely
consider the two together - low carb and mostly raw.

> > I have had OBVIOUS benefits now lasting a year, especially at
> > an energetic level, from eating a lot more raw foods (about 80%
> > raw right now). Little else important has changed in my life BTW.
>
> That is great Paul! It's great to hear when people get healthier.
> So, you're saying you're eating the _exact_ same foods as before,
> same proportions and all, only now they're raw instead of cooked?
>

I knew you were going to ask this. No, of course not. But that does
not
mean I can't clearly tell how foods are affecting me - as I have
posted
here too many times already how cooked vegetables (at least green)
make
me feel lousy when the EXACT same veggie eaten raw does not - it is no
placebo effect (in case you might insist to me it is), but an obvious
negative physical reaction to the cooked veggie. That's just how my
body
reacts. Whether it is leukocytosis or some other phenomenon, I can't
say.
I don't have the same negative reactions to cooked organic meat as
opposed
to raw <shrug>. Neither does a baked potato cause any obvious symptom.
Canned sardines are just fine with me. I do believe if my immune
system
was stronger eating some cooked veggies would be more agreeable, but I
doubt they will ever be a big part of my diet based on how cutting
them
out has helped me.

Paul