Peter Brandt wrote:
>
> Dave:
> >Supplements other than fish oil sources. It is too
> >bad but health does not come in a bottle. Our bodies
> >are designed to get nourishment from food. A skilled
> >nutritionist may be able to help you correct an imbalance.
> >This might take a month of supplementation but
> >afterwards you will need to "swim" on your own
> >with foods that will allow your body to maintain its
> >proper balance. Essentially supplements are just as
> >manufactured as pharmaceuticals Good food is cheaper
> >and will allow your body to find its proper balance.
> >All of the statements about the depletion of the soil
> >is nice but your body only needs enough of each nutrient
> >and is very good at balancing itself if given a chance and
> >not interfered with. If anyone chooses to supplement
> >that is your choice but I consider
> >discussions of this on the list to be off topic.>>
>
> Siobhan:
> >>Your point about these things being off-topic are
> >>well-taken. However, I think you should present
> >>your statements above as your opinion, not fact,
> >>as they contain a number of inaccuracies.
>
> Dave:
> >>>These statements are based upon my clinical experience
> >>>as a nutritionist for a couple of years at a holistic
> >>>center and then later in private practice.
>
> Yet, they contradict the experience of most (paleo)
> nutritionists.  Besides, you were a vegan so why
> give so much credence to your own clinical skills back
> then?

Peter, this is an important concept that few seem to be aware of. We are so used
to the medical way that we forget that the medical way if very artificial. You
and I had discussed this privately before. I had deferred to your judgment that
some people might need supplements. I do have a lot of respect for you. I have
worked with you and know your ability. If you say something, I listen. We don't
always agree but I do consider what you say. In this case you have "book"
knowledge but not the practical experience in the "trenches". You have only been
a patient/client.

You have only known me 10 years. There was a time before my vegan period. This
experience as a nutritionist started when I was a cooked food omnivore. Most
nutritionists and doctors that I have encountered and/or have read seem to be
recipe followers who forget that they are trying to help a dynamic being whose
body is seeking its proper balance in spite of everything that is being done to
thwart the body's attempts. One size does not fit all and their needs change,
sometimes very quickly. When this change is not noticed and the supplementation
continues, what was therapeutic becomes anti-therapeutic. I consider the ability
to detect this change to be a mark of a good nutritionist. The ability to find a
correct supplement is of course also very important. Excess can be just as bad
as deficit. We call this poisoning. It is slow at first but it increases with
time and the effects increase also.

Usually a nutritionist will be using a combination of ingredients for
synergistic effect. You also see this in bottled supplements. This is important
in therapeutic use because you are trying to trick the body into a change that
has not been occurring through their normal diet. After a while the body's
balance changes due to the supplementation and the synergistic quality is lost.
Now it starts to throw the balance off. Your body is genetically designed to
obtain its nutrients from whole natural food.

> Dave:
> >>>Would you care to share what you consider
> >>>inaccuracies?
>
> I will bite. The implication that all supplements
> are as harmful as pharmaceuticals - that it only
> takes about a month to correct imbalances with supplements
> - that eating natural, paleo foods will fix any condition
> in the body.

Not necessarily equally harmful but they are manufactured and usually high
potency since they are poorly absorbed. You can only trick the body so long. I
should have expanded on this a little more. Usually a particular formula will
only be good for at most a month. If the condition was still not back to normal
I would make changes in the formula as needed. Also if there is multiple
imbalances there will be a succession of formulas used over a period of time.
Once balance is achieved, paleo foods should be able to maintain it. I feel that
paleofood would work also but take longer. I consider this the better way,
especially for those that do not have available proper assistance. And of course
when you say any condition, there are some that supplementation will not fix.
Say someone's eye is missing, diet and/or supplementation may not change this.

> Dave, you are free to carry on your idealistic
> romance with natural hygiene type principles, but
> I oppose your insisting on making your personal
> purist preferences list policy.  Naturally, as
> listowner you can call the shots as you want but
> if taking supplements helps somebody stay on or
> transition to a paleodiet, it is important that
> this information is allowed to be shared - just
> like it would be helpful to your own attempts
> with a paleodiet if somebody were to post
> information about new breakthroughs in dentures.
> Trying to emulate a paleodiet does not necessarily
> mean living as a caveman.

Paleofood is a H/G food list not a general health list. I am setting a standard
for discussions on the list that set it apart from other lists which bring all
kinds of modern solutions. Some on the list are going continue to use
supplements anyway. This a person's personal choice. No one is going to die
because we don't discuss supplements on Paleofood. Herbs, fresh, dried, teas,
etc. would be acceptable H/G additions to foods to assist in finding balance.
However people should know what they are doing when using herbs. Traditionally
one went to a member of the tribe who had knowledge in the use of herbs. FWIW I
don't recall Ray Audette specifying in NeanderThin a list of supplements that we
should be taking. I would look it up but I read your copy which I returned to
you. He basically said give up the manufactured foods and live and eat as if you
would if you were naked with a sharp stick.

As far as natural hygiene, I left that long ago. They are mostly a bunch of high
carb vegetarians. that didn't work for me and evidentally didn't for many others
including yourself.
I am coping quite well with no teeth or dentures. I cut my meat into smaller
pieces and then chew before swallowing. You might remember the difficultly that
I had eating ribs when Ray came to Los Angeles. I had to grip with my gums and
pull to get the meat off the ribs. It is better to have teeth but we do with
what we have. I am not living as a caveman but living in a VW camper is a little
rustic. I then just step out and go into the office with computer and dsl line.
My flint knife is really made of steel which I take in to the meat manager at
Wild Oats for sharpening on his electric grinder.

David Karas
lisowner paleofood