"Erik Fridén" wrote:

> Bruce Kleisner:
> "Is a juicer any worse than a microwave?"
>
> I think some of the real purists don't use the micro either. Have you asked them?

I also mentioned food dehydrators, blenders, food processors, meat grinders,
refrigerators, ovens, and other modern technology that many here DO use. I
suspect that many here do use a microwave.

> "What about dried fruit, nut butters, vinegar, sea salt, fermented/pickled foods,
> maple syrup, and other gray areas? They say to avoid alcohol, including wine and
> champagne, but we can easily produce those by letting juice ferment. We don't
> need technology to make wine or champagne or vinegar or sea salt, do we?"
>
> And so we're back to the question of containers again!! ...
> Plainly said: all efficient fermenting requires both containers and settlement.
> Ditto boiling syrup. Ditto large-scale production of salt. And this is the paleo
> (= hunter-gatherer) list, not some grain-free neolithic (= settlers) one!

Show us where Cordain, Audette, or any other paleo author has said that we
can't use containers or boiling. I'm not suggesting refined table salt, but
UN-REFINED, UN-HEATED, SUN-DRIED SEA SALT. Barring that, we can splash some
sea water on our food. Then we're back to your arbitrary rule that we can't
use containers. I accept that it would probably be healthier to drink tree
sap than to boil it down into syrup. You can define "hunter-gather" as you
please. Thus, you can amuse yourself with semantics. But please answer the
question: how does fermenting/boiling/drying make paleo food non-paleo?

> "Some people go to an extreme of saying we shouldn't prepare
> food in a way that requires advanced planning or technology.
> They pretend that primitive people never went to the bother
> of preparing a feast."
>
> Who does? Although a paleo-feast would be on fresh produce, this isn't a raw-
> food list either. Let me return the question to you: why the obsession with
> fermentation and sprouting? Go find some vegan friends! The best and easiest
> way to prepare food was to steam it in a pit. Check the anthropological data!
> Erik F.

Cooking makes the nutrients in vegetables far more digestible and available
to our bodies. Raw vegetables (and their juices) are full of toxins, poisons,
irritants, enzyme inhibitors, and other anti-nutrients. Raw vegetables cause
malnutrition and failure to thrive. I have no interest in veganism. So why do
you accuse me of that? We have many examples of sprouting or fermenting among
hunter-gatherers and wild animals. Check the data on that.

I do eat some unheated unfiltered apple cider vinegar, unrefined sun-dried
sea salt, and home-made pickled vegetables using same. I also eat UNHEATED
honey, sometimes quite a lot of it. (Unheated means no heat above 100F and
preferably more like 93F. Worldwide, honeys can be heated to 118-120F, and
then labeled as "raw." In the U.S., the standards are even worse.)

You can argue that it isn't paleo to eat "large amounts" of x, even though
"small amounts" of x are paleo. To me, that is just subjective, theoretical,
and intellectual debate. Cordain cites research that primitives might have
eaten a moderate carb diet (30-45%). Does that discount the health benefits
of a low-carb (0-15%) diet? What nature gives us may or may not be optimal,
in its natural state. Cooking enhances the nutritional value of some foods,
reduces it in others, and in many cases seems a toss-up. We'll always have
more to learn about biochemistry and the effects of food.

Bruce Kleisner