Alexs wrote on an interesting topic
initially brought up by Wally Day:

>>   ...Could grain/legume be and
>>   "anti-meat" and vice-versa?

>A starting point might be to see if anybody's
>bothered to analyze the steady-state metabolic
>& enzyme systems that each dietary paradigm requires.
>
>As Paleo WOE'ers know, there is often
>an energy dip during the transition away from
>SAD/Neolithic towards Paleolithic -- presumably
>from the metabolic lag between high-carbo-
>burning to high-fat/protein burning. Conversely,
>Paleos & strict vegans "sinning" with a grain-
>and dairy-heavy meal often become quite ill.

I'd expect that the buildup of many enzyme system requires
at least some days.
One such enzymatic system of concern is for example
the conversion of the long chain fatty acids from the
precursors occuring in plants, to the ones occuring in animal brains.
As long as the precursors aren't present (as in the SAD)
it makes no sense that the necessary enzymes were present
(here: elongases).

This implies to me, that any measurements of conversion rates
need to be done only in the presence of the precursors and
after a considerable adaption time.
This IMO applies to beta carotene, taurin and so on and can explain
why some persons *used* to a certain diet obviously do have
enough of the produced essentials, though not in the diet.
After all we have the ability to built them,
and it needs to be trained.

Same applies IMO for transition from glucose-fueled brains to
brains becomeing able to run on ketones for half.
It'll need some time to build up the enzymes.

>
>IMO grain/legume is and always will be
>a second-best meat substitute. It is simply
>not possible to provide any but the grossest
>approximation to the amino acid profiles; like-
>wise for most of the vitamins, enzymes and
>minerals in meat-like proportions. ...
I agree that the grain/legume (and flax) economy, that emerged
after the last glaziation, was an approximation of the needs
that humans aquired in long pre-agricultural times.
After all, it was a very successful one and we probably still don't
understand it's principles in satisfying the body's needs
with certain plants and with forgotten but
necessary processing techniques
(phytase breakdown by germinaten isn't frequent today).

But IMHO meat isn't the model that has to be reconstructed.
Egg has a much better amino acid composition than meat
for example - because what we have to buildup from
that muscle protein is only a little muscle but also
hair, nails and various enzymes.
Also, since we aren't real predators (like cats)
our vitamin needs are different. For example we need vitamin c,
and we would need very big amounts of meat for *some* vitamins.

So, what needs to be rebuilt or reconstructed is not simply meat
but the *whole* true paleolithic adaption.
The first neolithics did it somehow, and we are trying our own
approach.

Wally Day:
>> As for how grain/legume digests poorly and
>> afflicts the consumer with allergens, addictive
>> opiate-like peptides etc, that's old news.
>
>Not necessarily true. I will grant you that an
>occasional bean meal will cause bloating and gas. But
>the *conventional* wisdom is that the body can adjust
>to beans over the long haul and "learn" to properly
>digest them. Which almost never happens because of the
>nasty reaction most users feel the first time out:)

This reminds me that not only or own enzymatic systems
have to anjust, but also our symbiont gut bacteria.
This will last at least several days.

My own idea about the bad effect of the mix of the diets
(two good diets mixed give a bad mix like in SAD) is:

What is unprecedented ever, is the enormous mix of different
varieties of proteins in a single meal, a single day and a season.
I realized it when trying to adopt the essene teaching of not to
include more than 3 ingredients in a single meal.
Real paleolithics had a very big variety to choose from.
But couldn't eat all together in a single meal.

I read about the topic, that our immune system may become
depleted of substances necessary to control each type of protein.
That makes sense to me.
And the big mixing of SAD of today is one main difference
to the real anchestral diets (including pre-agricultural
and neolithic).
My conclusion for today: I try to keep my food plain and simple.

regards,
Amadeus

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