On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 01:46:54 -0700, Ingrid Bauer/J-C Catry
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>>However there *are* sustainable agricultural lifestyles and have proven
>>over the centuries (60 centuries in europe).
>
>I question this big time . The old ways of farming had brought the land to
>a state where chemical fertilisers became a necessity to get to the
>highest yield possible.

It's true, that the very first Linearband "islands" later expanded to
somewhat less suitable locations. But the original sites were still used
for all the hundreds (no thousands) of years without interuption and
of course without chemical fertilisation. Chemical fertilizers
exist only for a very small timeframe to the past.

The "highest yeald possible" is not at all necessary, nor desired.
Low yeald fields and slow growing plants are the best in mineral,
micronutient and protein content.
It is the small growing plants (harvesting only 3-4fold of the
seed) which provided the thousandfold decrease of land space
requirement from h/g to Linearband.

>Cultivation of the soil interfere with the natural fertilisation process
>and render the necessity to steal some energy from the outside to ,( at the
>best of organic farming, ) maintain with lot of pain the fertility.

Best nature fertilizing is done with intermediate fruit, like peas.
They don't harm fertility, they just add to it, including nitrogen.
The energy of a nature field is comeing only from the *sun*.
I know a farmer who is doing this for >15 years without adding anything
on the same space with great success.

>Only Nature is able to increase fertility and top soil !  with the Natural
>way of farming presented by Masanobu Fukuoka which we can approach that at
>the most.

I'm interested and will search for that Masanobu methods.

>
>>I think it's obvious that the *only* way to survive in the long term
>>for humanity (without killing 95% off) is option 3: modern organic.
>
>That is not enough , Modern organic will prove itself as unsustainable  in
>the long term ( tho it will do way better in the mid term )
>.. Organic farming will slowly and
>surely come back to the same place than chemical agriculture with the same
>problems of unbalanced soils and diseases.

You seem to have a very different opinion what can be called organic over
there. I'm pretty sure that what i've seen here *is* sustabiable.
There's nothing taken from the soil, except some trace minerals.
These may take many hundred years to decrease (they were build up in 12000
years, after the last ice age).
But if other plant remains are given back (as compost) it will never end.
It will be a "perpetuum mobile" (driven by the sun).

>Come to visit  what is left of  the Temperate rain forest of Canada before
>it disappear and you will have a glimpse on how the "wild ecosystems " of
>europe are very poor in comparaison. The degradation started with the roman
>there , here just 100 years ago.

I've seen reports that in Canada and east US the only left temperate
untouched forests are beeing destroyed. I'd like to see them before,to have
an impression, where the now untouched regions over here may develop to
some time.

>...And canada is exporting its paper to Europe!
>the economic reality have nothing to do with "good sense"

I can imagine that. Canada has very much more wood that even Skandinavia.
Protect it! Raise taxes on it! Don't let some paper makers anywhere on the
world use this just because of economic reasons.
Here we have a recycling rate of about 50% of all paper.
They are preferring fresh wood paper just because the raw material is too
cheap! Too cheap for the recycling system to proceed.

>most of the other countries can't afford the luxuary of modern organic
>farming, so the peoples who want change go to Natural way of farming.

I'd be interested to know what's the difference between what you call
Natural farming and what organic farming is for me.
Can be it's quite similar.

Organic or natural farming is *not* a luxury. It's the only way to survive.
The soil is running away. "Chemical" conventional farming is harvesting 4 to
6-fold - but for a limited time. Moore than this gain is wasted by feeding
some pigs and cattle.
*That* is the luxury.
And this is not paleolike, not as way of living *and* not in quality.

yours

Amadeus S.