On Wed, 31 May 2000 16:23:50 -0400, Todd Moody <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>> Can (high, any, whatever) protein in a meal reduce it's insulin peak?
>> I didn't find any reference for this claim.
>
>No.  Since protein does not reduce insulin it cannot reduce the
>insulin peak of a meal.
> But since protein stimulates only about
>40% as much insulin secretion as carbohydrate, *replacing* carbs
>with protein will tend to reduce the insulin peak, given equal
>calories.  That is, a 500 kcal high-protein meal should generate
>a smaller insulin response than a 500 kcal high-carb meal.

Now, that makes sense.
As I've understood from readings
(my favourite is now in http://www.zonehome.com/met/metglucose.htm )
it works this way, that after a meal blood glucose raises.
Insulin is secreted then to downadjust the blood glucose and glucagon not
involved.
Once blood sugar is down again, and begins to fall below "normal" level
glucagon is released to bring it up again by stimulating the access
to the reserves (glycogen and neoglucogenesis).

Ok, so Sear's claim in his book "glucagon helps decrease insulin"
is not very clarifying (politely said).
Eather the one works *or* the other.

Each carb or protein containing meal
will elevate insulin for a while (bad eicos).
Some l (GI).

I understood from your all answers, that at least 4 hours should be
after a (Zone) meal, and hopefully in this time (in a healthy one)
insulin will have time to drop.
Of course glucagon helps not to feel hungry after energy, because it
reestablishes glucose up to normal levels (by using reserves).
Not only 4 hours,
it does so the whole night until the morning, doesn't it?.

Ok, how to promote the good eicos then (the original question)?
Now my own attempt of interpretation:

- Eat as much calories as possible in form of fat
  (e.g. 500 kcal as carbs for the brain needed anyway and 1800 kcal from
  fat).
- Keep long enough pauses after each carbo meal that insulin may drop.
- Intermediate snacks (after enough of time) should best be of
  predominating protein and fat (low in carbs). So that few glucose enters
  into the blood (I do this with sunflower seed hehe).
- Maybe (high) carb-containing meals may be concentrated to few meals per
  day - so that the protein-meals can't elevate the already low
  glucose level too much.
  This directly contradicts Sears' interpretation.
  (And promotes Haye's seperation).

- And of course omega-3 then, and Gamma-linolen-acid.
  (btw latter is not only in borage, but also to 3% in *hemp* oil,
  as the label on my bottles claims).

I couldn' remember who posted this, but..
I don't think that 100g carbs can elevate insulin for 7 hours or so.
I once made a test with 100g pure glucose.
It dropped fast enough ,tested after 1 hour or so.
This speaks for carb concentration on one meal.

The above web reference tells us that or carb reserves (glycogen of liver
and  muscle) last for about 4 days. 6 hours shouldn't be a problem.

>There is also the fact that if one consumes more protein at one
>time than the body can assimilate, the insulin response will be
>comparable to that for carbs, because the protein must be
>converted to fat for storage, and insulin is needed for this.
>Sears says this ceiling is about 35g of protein, but this is
>controversial.

This may depend on the amount of amino acids already in the blood.
This are at maximum about 55g (no reference how quick this is used up).
But if 55g are full 0g may be the ceiling and if halfway down
35g may be the ceiling.

To our protein discussion (usefullness and protein balance tests):
I realized, why a higher protein supply may be useful,
as demanded by protein balance tests (testing how much N stays in the body):
The body can synthesize some (13 of 21) amino acids out of glucose
(and a N source). Anabolic role of insulin....
But if *all* amino acids are present, because abundant in the food,
this will probably not occur. And more unneeded amino acids
become downgraded to fuel instead.
This is a decision between more gluconeogenesis
or amino acid synthetisation / rebuilding.


>This is why you don't want to eat for four hours after the meal,
>because eating almost anything will probably inhibit the glucagon
>response (pure fat might be okay).

Thats it, in my present understanding.

>Of course, all this depends on other factors as well, such as
>exercise patterns,

Yes, exercise *uses* glucose and will shorten therefore the glucose peak.
As may heavy thinking ;-) (joke intended)

Amadeus