i think the word both of you are looking for is "dogmatic." i might
throw in "disputatious." but belief in God has nothing to do with it.
Jim Swayze
www.fireholecanyon.com
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 30, 2009, at 1:29 PM, Dedy Rundle <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> Rendering fats is done VERY carefully at VERY low temperatures...
>
> and yes... I agree with Tracey...
>
> There are religious overtones in some peoples' posts but that's what
> the 'delete' key is for.
>
> Dedy
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracy Bradley" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: 30 June 2009 19:20
> Subject: Re: [PALEOFOOD] Joint pains etc.
>
>
>> Re: pemmican...
>>
>> Do you have any information that demonstrates that pemmican
>> contains toxic lipid peroxides? Has anyone tested samples of
>> pemmican and determined this? Or is this something you assume given
>> your current beliefs about cooked fats?
>>
>> And there's as many theories about cancer as there are hairs on the
>> human body. I would love a link to the study you cited. I'll trade
>> ya for a bunch that link cancer to glucose and we can call it a
>> draw. :)
>>
>> I am starting to feel like we're having a religious discussion that
>> is going around in circles and accomplishing absolutely nothing bc
>> we're both looking through totally different belief structures, if
>> you will.
>>
>> Geoffrey Purcell wrote:
>>> Re comment:- "So pemmican = Pop Tarts?"
>>>
>>> Pretty much. Pemmican is full of toxic lipid peroxides, and
>>> rendered for ages, not just merely cooked. Here's a comment (by a
>>> fellow rawpalaeo)
>>>
>>> from the summary of Holistic Cancer Therapy in "Overcoming Cancer"
>>> by Walter Last:
>>>
>>>> "Furthermore, [in cancer] there is commonly a deterioration in the
>>>> lipid (fat-related) composition of the cell walls that allows
>>>> toxins
>>>> to enter the cells, and prevents waste residue from being
>>>> removed. The
>>>> main cause of this deterioration is the habitual consumption of
>>>> heated
>>>> or oxidized fats, and a deficiency of omega-3 fatty acids as in
>>>> fish
>>>> oils and linseed oil [and, he should have added, in grassfed animal
>>>> fat]."
>>>>
>>>> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:20:10 -0400
>>>> From: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Joint pains etc.
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>> Geoffrey Purcell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Re pemmican comment:- I'm always amazed at why anyone can
>>>>> recommend pemmican. The whole point of the healthy foods
>>>>> movement is to stay well away from any preserved foods which
>>>>> last for decades, as there's a standard rule that the longer the
>>>>> shelf-life of a food , the lower its quality will always be.
>>>>> Pemmican is really no different in this regard from all those
>>>>> processed junk foods designed to last years and years on the
>>>>> supermarket shelf.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> So pemmican = Pop Tarts?
>>>>
>>>>> Re comment:- "Starvation/malnutrition also leaves telltale marks
>>>>> on the bones as well"
>>>>>
>>>>> As I showed in a recent post, there were indeed examples of
>>>>> telltale marks of starvation on palaeo bones:-
>>>>> I made that point re famine as it's commonly accepted by
>>>>> palaeoanthropologists that famine was a routine part of the
>>>>> palaeolithic era:-
>>>>>
>>>>> "Combined with a relatively low average age at death, the
>>>>> hypoplasia evidence suggests that Neandertals underwent periods
>>>>> of nutritional stress or famine on a frequent basis " taken from:-
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.pnas.org/content/98/19/10972.full
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Yes...my point was that not all paleo bones show signs of
>>>> malnutrition or starvation.
>>>>
>>>>> Re comment on AGEs:- "AGE's require glucose and oxidization.
>>>>> Many studies implicating
>>>>>
>>>>>> cooking/fried foods included high amounts of PUFA's and/or
>>>>>> other 'modern' foods including foods that break down to glucose."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> This is very misleading. AGEs do NOT just require glucose. That
>>>>> applies to only 1 type of AGE. There is also another category of
>>>>> AGEs, known as "ALEs"(="Advanced Lipoxidation Endproducts")
>>>>> which involve the oxidation of fats and don't require glucose:-
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1067029/advanced_glycation_and_lipoxidation_end_productsamplifiers_of_inflammation_the_role/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Dairy products contain lactose (sugar). Here's my overall point
>>>> re: AGE's/ALE's: do they matter in a healthy body that is not
>>>> consuming much sugar or inflammatory foods? This piece said over
>>>> half the studies have been performed on ppl either with diabetes
>>>> or renal disease. These people already have massive stuff going
>>>> on, and the association with AGE's/ALE's could be just that - an
>>>> association. This was interesting: "Experimental studies suggest
>>>> that increased deposition of AGEs/ALEs in tissues is strongly
>>>> associated with down-regulation of leptin expression in
>>>> adipocytes and metabolic syndrome." Metabolic syndrome = high
>>>> circulating insulin levels, insulin resistance, etc. Leptin down-
>>>> regulation = high triglycerides, which are a common occurence in
>>>> high-carb diets. Suddenly, we're back to glucose as a factor, if
>>>> not in their formation but in their deposition. Note I say
>>>> FACTOR. Everything works together in the body. So my interest is
>>>> if AGE's/ALE's are primarily a problem for people who have an
>>>> internal situation in which deposition of these things is
>>>> increased due to existing diet-related conditions -- and not a
>>>> problem (or perhaps much less of a problem) in people who do not.
>>>> HIgh levels are repeatedly found in ppl with chronic disease --
>>>> ok, but are they the CAUSE of the disease, or are they a factor
>>>> combined with several other factors?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Interestingly, it's been pointed out that the reason why so many
>>>>> studies (correctly) report harmful results from eating diets
>>>>> high in saturated fats may be
>>>>> primarily due, not to the issue of saturated fats per se, but to
>>>>> the fact that such diets are also very high in heat-created
>>>>> toxins, resulting
>>>>> from cooking, such as AGEs/ALEs(in other words, raw saturated
>>>>> fats are fine but not cooked saturated fats)):-
>>>>>
>>>>> "It has been suggested that, "given the prominence of this type
>>>>> of food in the
>>>>> human diet, the deleterious effects of high-(saturated)fat foods
>>>>> may be in part
>>>>> due to the high content in glycotoxins, above and beyond those
>>>>> due to oxidized
>>>>> fatty acid derivatives." The glycotoxins, as he called them, are
>>>>> more
>>>>> commonly called AGEs:-
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&artid=21074
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The control meal in this study was cooked chicken egg whites, and
>>>> the AGE meal was egg whites with fructose? Maybe I am missing
>>>> something?
>>>> Also: "Diabetic subjects were maintained on their diabetic diets,
>>>> as provided by the metabolic ward, divided into 15–20% protein
>>>> , 30–35% fat, and 45–50% carbohydrates, while breakfast carboh
>>>> ydrates were supplemented with apple juice". It appears as if
>>>> these researchers don't consider carbohydrates as particularly
>>>> important in diabetes, which is both telling and alarming.
>>>>
>>>> I do find this interesting, I just would like to see better
>>>> studies. If they aren't taking other dietary factors into
>>>> account, we're not really learning much other than that
>>>> associations exist, but that's not a whole lot to go on either.
>>>> The prevalence of focus on diabetics, for example, suggests to me
>>>> that they're searching for a cause of diabetes that doesn't
>>>> involve carbs -- in other words, that will fit with what they've
>>>> already been recommending for diabetics.
>>>>
>>>> Incidentally - I eat very lightly cooked meat ;) I like my steak
>>>> seared on the outside, raw in the middle. I prefer fish raw. Just
>>>> so you know I'm not some shoe-leather steak fan trying to justify
>>>> her love of overcooked meat. (I do cook my chicken well, though
>>>> not 1 hour broiled chicken breast like in one of the studies you
>>>> linked!)
>>>>
>>>
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