Dave:
>I do have a lot of respect for you. I have worked with
>you and know your ability. If you say something, I listen.
>We don't always agree but I do consider what you say.

Flatter will get you nowhere. ;-)

Peter:
>> Yet, they contradict the experience of most (paleo)
>>nutritionists. Besides, you were a vegan so why
>>give so much credence to your own clinical skills back
>>then?

Dave:
 >In this case you have "book" knowledge but not the practical
>experience in the "trenches". You have only been a patient/client.

I did not talk about my own experience but that of others.

Dave:
>You have only known me 10 years. There was a time before my
>vegan period.

You are still a purist at heart whether (raw) vegan, instincto or raw paleo.
You were 100% raw vegan when I met you.

Dave:
>This experience as a nutritionist started when I was a cooked food
>omnivore. Most nutritionists and doctors that I have encountered
>and/or have read seem to be recipe followers

It is time for you to expand your horizon.   You obviously have
not kept up with the explosion of energy medicine and the increasing
sophistication of diagnostic tools and techniques available today.

Dave:
>Excess can be just as bad as deficit. We call this poisoning.
>It is slow at first but it increases with time and the effects increase also.

Excess is not good, but should I stop drinking water to avoid the
risk of drowning?

Dave:
>Usually a nutritionist will be using a combination of ingredients for
>synergistic effect. You also see this in bottled supplements. This is
>important in therapeutic use because you are trying to trick the body
>into a change that has not been occurring through their normal diet.

Since when is bringing about a healthful change in the body "to trick"?
I think what is difficult for a diet purist like yourself to understand is that
diet alone, no matter how "normal", will not always be able to revert
a body to balance and health.  The challenges of our modern world
are just too great.

Dave:
>After a while the body's balance changes due to the supplementation
>and the synergistic quality is lost.   Now it starts to throw the balance
>off.

This is always a possibility especially if not conducted in a careful manner.

Dave:
>Your body is genetically designed to obtain its nutrients from
>whole natural food.

That is true.

Dave:
>Not necessarily equally harmful but they are manufactured and usually high
>potency since they are poorly absorbed.

That is very dependent on the quality.  Some supplements are better
absorbed than food because they are already broken down.

Dave:
>You can only trick the body so long. I should have expanded on this a
>little more. Usually a particular formula will only be good for at most a
>month. If the condition was still not back to normal I would make changes
>in the formula as needed.  Also if there is multiple imbalances there will be
>.a succession of formulas used over a period of time.

In your experience...   Supplements are not only taken
therapeutically to correct conditions.  In the context we are talking
it is just as much a matter of trying to make up for lackings in
our non-paleo food supply for purposes of prevention.

Dave:
>Once balance is achieved, paleo foods should be able to maintain it.
>I feel that paleofood would work also but take longer.

In your humble opinion.....

Dave:
>I consider this the better way, especially for those that do not have
>available proper assistance.

Spoken like a true (diet) idealist.   We all do the best we can
but remember that eating a 100% organic and natural paleo diet is not
necessarily the most feasible either.

Dave:
>And of course when you say any condition, there are some that
>supplementation will not fix.  Say someone's eye is missing, diet
>and/or supplementation may not change this.

Naturally.

Dave:
>Paleofood is a H/G food list not a general health list.

I never said it was.

Dave:
>I am setting a standard for discussions on the list that set it apart
>from other lists which bring all kinds of modern solutions.

But your standard is unrealistic and clearly a minority on the list.

Dave:
>Some on the list are going continue to use supplements anyway.
>This a person's personal choice.

So information that could make the difference for somebody
trying to stay on or transition to a paleo diet should not
be shared?  What kind of support list would that be?

Dave:
>No one is going to die because we don't discuss supplements on .
>Paleofood.

Nor are you if a few supplement tips are shared now and then.

Dave:
>Herbs, fresh, dried, teas, etc. would be acceptable H/G additions
>to foods to assist in finding balance.  However people should know
>what they are doing when using herbs. Traditionally
>one went to a member of the tribe who had knowledge in the use
>of herbs.

Luckily, there are still many good herbalists around today.

Dave:
>FWIW I don't recall Ray Audette specifying in NeanderThin a list of supplements that
>we should be taking. I would look it up but I read your copy which I returned to
>you. He basically said give up the manufactured foods and live and eat as if
>you would if you were naked with a sharp stick.

There are tons of topics being discussed on this list that were never
mentioned in NeanderThin.  Hopefully, Ray's book is to be a starting
point and not an absolute end point for discusssions on this list.

Dave:
>As far as natural hygiene, I left that long ago.

In your own mind maybe, however, you are still well entrenced in its
idealistic, naturalist ideology.

Dave:
>They are mostly a bunch of high carb vegetarians. that didn't
>work for me and evidentally didn't for many others including yourself.

Maybe we did not try hard enough. :)

Dave:
>I am coping quite well with no teeth or dentures. I cut my meat into smaller
>pieces and then chew before swallowing. You might remember the difficultly
>that I had eating ribs when Ray came to Los Angeles. I had to grip with my gums and
>pull to get the meat off the ribs. It is better to have teeth but we do with
>what we have.

You are a true inspiration to us all.

Dave:
>I am not living as a caveman but living in a VW camper is a
>little rustic. I then just step out and go into the office with
>computer and dsl line.  My flint knife is really made of steel
>which I take in to the meat manager at Wild Oats for sharpening
>on his electric grinder.

I would not make a difference if you were living at the Ritz.
You are for the better or the worse a caveman at heart.

Peter