Rendering fats is done VERY carefully at VERY low temperatures...
and yes... I agree with Tracey...
There are religious overtones in some peoples' posts but that's what the
'delete' key is for.
Dedy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tracy Bradley" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 30 June 2009 19:20
Subject: Re: [PALEOFOOD] Joint pains etc.
> Re: pemmican...
>
> Do you have any information that demonstrates that pemmican contains toxic
> lipid peroxides? Has anyone tested samples of pemmican and determined
> this? Or is this something you assume given your current beliefs about
> cooked fats?
>
> And there's as many theories about cancer as there are hairs on the human
> body. I would love a link to the study you cited. I'll trade ya for a
> bunch that link cancer to glucose and we can call it a draw. :)
>
> I am starting to feel like we're having a religious discussion that is
> going around in circles and accomplishing absolutely nothing bc we're both
> looking through totally different belief structures, if you will.
>
> Geoffrey Purcell wrote:
>> Re comment:- "So pemmican = Pop Tarts?"
>>
>> Pretty much. Pemmican is full of toxic lipid peroxides, and rendered for
>> ages, not just merely cooked. Here's a comment (by a fellow rawpalaeo)
>>
>> from the summary of Holistic Cancer Therapy in "Overcoming Cancer" by
>> Walter Last:
>>
>>> "Furthermore, [in cancer] there is commonly a deterioration in the
>>> lipid (fat-related) composition of the cell walls that allows toxins
>>> to enter the cells, and prevents waste residue from being removed. The
>>> main cause of this deterioration is the habitual consumption of heated
>>> or oxidized fats, and a deficiency of omega-3 fatty acids as in fish
>>> oils and linseed oil [and, he should have added, in grassfed animal
>>> fat]."
>>>
>>> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:20:10 -0400
>>> From: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Joint pains etc.
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>> Geoffrey Purcell wrote:
>>>
>>>> Re pemmican comment:- I'm always amazed at why anyone can recommend
>>>> pemmican. The whole point of the healthy foods movement is to stay well
>>>> away from any preserved foods which last for decades, as there's a
>>>> standard rule that the longer the shelf-life of a food , the lower its
>>>> quality will always be. Pemmican is really no different in this regard
>>>> from all those processed junk foods designed to last years and years on
>>>> the supermarket shelf.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> So pemmican = Pop Tarts?
>>>
>>>> Re comment:- "Starvation/malnutrition also leaves telltale marks on the
>>>> bones as well"
>>>>
>>>> As I showed in a recent post, there were indeed examples of telltale
>>>> marks of starvation on palaeo bones:-
>>>> I made that point re famine as it's commonly accepted by
>>>> palaeoanthropologists that famine was a routine part of the
>>>> palaeolithic era:-
>>>>
>>>> "Combined with a relatively low average age at death, the hypoplasia
>>>> evidence suggests that Neandertals underwent periods of nutritional
>>>> stress or famine on a frequent basis " taken from:-
>>>>
>>>> http://www.pnas.org/content/98/19/10972.full
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Yes...my point was that not all paleo bones show signs of malnutrition
>>> or starvation.
>>>
>>>> Re comment on AGEs:- "AGE's require glucose and oxidization. Many
>>>> studies implicating
>>>>
>>>>> cooking/fried foods included high amounts of PUFA's and/or other
>>>>> 'modern' foods including foods that break down to glucose."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> This is very misleading. AGEs do NOT just require glucose. That applies
>>>> to only 1 type of AGE. There is also another category of AGEs, known as
>>>> "ALEs"(="Advanced Lipoxidation Endproducts") which involve the
>>>> oxidation of fats and don't require glucose:-
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1067029/advanced_glycation_and_lipoxidation_end_productsamplifiers_of_inflammation_the_role/index.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Dairy products contain lactose (sugar). Here's my overall point re:
>>> AGE's/ALE's: do they matter in a healthy body that is not consuming much
>>> sugar or inflammatory foods? This piece said over half the studies have
>>> been performed on ppl either with diabetes or renal disease. These
>>> people already have massive stuff going on, and the association with
>>> AGE's/ALE's could be just that - an association. This was interesting:
>>> "Experimental studies suggest that increased deposition of AGEs/ALEs in
>>> tissues is strongly associated with down-regulation of leptin expression
>>> in adipocytes and metabolic syndrome." Metabolic syndrome = high
>>> circulating insulin levels, insulin resistance, etc. Leptin
>>> down-regulation = high triglycerides, which are a common occurence in
>>> high-carb diets. Suddenly, we're back to glucose as a factor, if not in
>>> their formation but in their deposition. Note I say FACTOR. Everything
>>> works together in the body. So my interest is if AGE's/ALE's are
>>> primarily a problem for people who have an internal situation in which
>>> deposition of these things is increased due to existing diet-related
>>> conditions -- and not a problem (or perhaps much less of a problem) in
>>> people who do not. HIgh levels are repeatedly found in ppl with chronic
>>> disease -- ok, but are they the CAUSE of the disease, or are they a
>>> factor combined with several other factors?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Interestingly, it's been pointed out that the reason why so many
>>>> studies (correctly) report harmful results from eating diets high in
>>>> saturated fats may be
>>>> primarily due, not to the issue of saturated fats per se, but to the
>>>> fact that such diets are also very high in heat-created toxins,
>>>> resulting
>>>> from cooking, such as AGEs/ALEs(in other words, raw saturated fats are
>>>> fine but not cooked saturated fats)):-
>>>>
>>>> "It has been suggested that, "given the prominence of this type of food
>>>> in the
>>>> human diet, the deleterious effects of high-(saturated)fat foods may be
>>>> in part
>>>> due to the high content in glycotoxins, above and beyond those due to
>>>> oxidized
>>>> fatty acid derivatives." The glycotoxins, as he called them, are more
>>>> commonly called AGEs:-
>>>>
>>>> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&artid=21074
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The control meal in this study was cooked chicken egg whites, and the
>>> AGE meal was egg whites with fructose? Maybe I am missing something?
>>> Also: "Diabetic subjects were maintained on their diabetic diets, as
>>> provided by the metabolic ward, divided into 15–20% protein, 30–35% fat,
>>> and 45–50% carbohydrates, while breakfast carbohydrates were
>>> supplemented with apple juice". It appears as if these researchers don't
>>> consider carbohydrates as particularly important in diabetes, which is
>>> both telling and alarming.
>>>
>>> I do find this interesting, I just would like to see better studies. If
>>> they aren't taking other dietary factors into account, we're not really
>>> learning much other than that associations exist, but that's not a whole
>>> lot to go on either. The prevalence of focus on diabetics, for example,
>>> suggests to me that they're searching for a cause of diabetes that
>>> doesn't involve carbs -- in other words, that will fit with what they've
>>> already been recommending for diabetics.
>>>
>>> Incidentally - I eat very lightly cooked meat ;) I like my steak seared
>>> on the outside, raw in the middle. I prefer fish raw. Just so you know
>>> I'm not some shoe-leather steak fan trying to justify her love of
>>> overcooked meat. (I do cook my chicken well, though not 1 hour broiled
>>> chicken breast like in one of the studies you linked!)
>>>
>>
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