Moribolong,
Good to hear you again. I think you have helped narrow Suntou's scope of
considerations otherwise he's likely to run all over the place with extraneous
correlations. The only thing I would like you to consider more is this:
"If I have the wisdom and knowledge to translate the Quran into any
language, there is no entity in the United States that will release a press statement
telling the citizenry that they have a presidential directive mandating them
to regulate my right to free religious expression." Ousman.
While I am tempted to agree with you on grounds of [Freedom of Expression],
religious literature and supplications are personal corporate intellectual
property. For example, the Bible is the intellectual property of Christians as
an entity and is guarded by the Christian council as to authenticity,
reproduction, and translation. Similarly, the Qur'an is the intellectual property of
Muslims, guarded by the Islamic council as to authenticity, reproduction,
and translation. Freedom of Expression recognizes this value for harmonious
living sakes. We understand that the very existence of Christians and muslims is
guided by the Bible and Qur'an respectively. It is because of these books
that these entities have their various charters to operate as missionaries in
foreign lands. Salman Rushdie's book was not a translation that is why I
thought the issue of Fatwa's against him was ill-advised.
For Freedom of expression and if you or I have the wisdom and knowledge, and
we wish to produce value from such, we are best advised to write our own
books and form religions around those intellectual properties. Disregarding this
value you would agree with me will engender a further translation of your
translation of the Qur'an or Bible. We might therefore look at this caution in
Freedom of expression as a stop-gap measure to indiscriminate mischief and
disorder. Having the knowledge and wisdom is not good enough reason to trespass
on other's intellectual property. If it were, we would not have been here to
assert that privilege. Besides, there are a lot of people with the requisite
knowledge and wisdom to rob a bank or rape, but those activities are
criminal.
What I share here is that translating the Bible or Qur'an or the book of the
Hindis, and Mormons, or the Seventh Day Adventists, is not sheer exercise in
literal prowess. The fact that we have various religions formed around the
thoughts of their founders bears witness to the disutility of translating the
religious texts of other religions. If we feel strongly enough about the
inadequacy of any religion, we would aim to replace it with another, perhaps a
better one, especially if we obtain the wisdom and knowledge to do so. It would
be interesting to note that the wisdom and knowledge we obtain to realize
the banality of a certain religion, comes, if in ever so small measure, from
the literature of that said same religion. I am confident we would rather use
our wisdom and knowledge to accrue value for ourselves and our fellow
citizens. That is circumspect. Ousman I think if you look at it carefully, you will
conclude that endless "translations" are counterproductive to education and
salvation.
I do acknowledge your passion for Freedom of Expression for that is the
nutrient for my life. However it is my life among those of others. I hope you
will take another look at it and see where I might have a deficit of knowledge
in this area. The rest of your notes are very valuable and I have learned a
lot from it. I hope Suntou can yield value from it as well.
In a message dated 12/7/2007 9:01:25 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Suntou,
The separation of church and state in the United States is well defined.
Mitt Romney is running for the nomination of a party that has an Evangelical
base. These block of voters have an agenda and he (romney) feels he needs to be
in their good books to win his party's nomination.
The difference between what is happening in American politics and the SIC
issue is that the government hasn't appoint anyone to be the arbiter of what a
citizen or group of citizens in the country can do when it comes to matters
of faith. If I have the wisdom and knowledge to translate the Quran into any
language, there is no entity in the United States that will release a press
statement telling the citizenry that they have a presidential directive
mandating them to regulate my right to free religious expression.
Are there religious zealots in the united states? You bet. The Mormon issue
is one example. Obama has been fighting the Muslim rumor since he entered the
race. A Clinton campaign aide in Iowa was caught this week sending out
emails talking of a Muslim conspiracy to take over America through Barack Obama.
You can argue with Ahmadis over theology for all I care, but once SIC use
the power of the state to try and regulate the religious adherence of citizens,
who attest to a belief they disagree with, we are trending towards a
dangerous path.
SUNTOU TOURAY <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Ousman ,even in the u.s where
you are based ,religion get hot some times but that doesn't mean people are
intolerant of one of another ,it only indicate how some take God's business
more passionately than others.just yesterday the U.S presidential hopeful from
Salt lake city is trying hard to avoid questions about his Mormonism .why
should educated,civilise and democratic America be worrying itself with a Mormon
president ?
the guy's name is Mitt Romney .President Kenny dodge his catholic religion
question all during his time in office why ?He was forced to make a statement
that he will not take orders from the Vatican .
I am not being intolerant,i just want clarity in things that's all.The
ahamadiya English Quran usually have the name AHAMADIYA TRANSLATION.if that is the
case then fine ,no one will get deceived.
Ousman Ceesay wrote:
Suntou,
What is troubling to most of us on this issue is the authoritarian way the
SIC is trying to operate. Take this sentence from their press release for
instance:
"According to the release presidential directives have earlier been issued
to the effect that there should be no publication or radio programmes in
Islamic matters without the approval of the council."
So the SIC armed with a presidential directive is demanding that citizens of
a secular nation get permission from them before exercising what is
purportedly an act between them and their God.
Ginny is right to bring up the hypocrisy factor. Yahya is using the Quran in
his AIDS cure madness. If you watch the video, you will see him rubbing some
kind of ointment on a semi-nude woman with one hand, while holding the Quran
in the other.Did you hear a word from Bading Drammeh on that issue? However,
when it comes to the Ahmadis translating the Quran and announcing it's
availability...well how dare they? The president said nobody in the Gambia can do
that without Bading and his mighty Supreme council.
Meanwhile we have civil rights activist like yourself (Suntou) letting your
theological disagreement with the Ahmadis cloud your judgment in a blatant
case of religious intolerance.
SUNTOU TOURAY wrote: Ginny,sorry for the misspelling of your name ,it was an
over-site.Ginny if you are conversant with the advice of the messenger of
Islam concerning scholars dealing with rulers you will realise that the sic
did not do any thing wrong by not openly confronting our mad president.
Think back to many years ago what happen in Somalia when scholars try to
intervene in matters of politics.many scholars were killed by the communist
regime in power and since then somalia never have any respite.again when scholars
try to get involve it will the same media people who will start banging on
about our coveted secularism . In our day and age Islam is label with all
sorts of names and you want yahya to join that bandwagon? if imam fatty for
instance start using his sermons to castigate yahya ,he will be locked up like
hydara was locked up.did you heard about Imam Hydara of airport mosque ?
Scholars most use Hikma or wisdom in dealing with sitting leaders.we have
politicians who can challenge the president using the secular constitutions of our
country ,no problem.to accuse an imam or scholar of being a T today is very easy
.so yes members of the SIC need to do more when it comes to advising yahya
,but since when did yahya start listening to any one? yahya knows
he is not suppose do what he is doing .
on subject of visiting the president in state house on days of eid,that was
a tradition from the days of jawara .the Christan's too visit the president .
many scholars don't get media attention because that is not news,but the
press release was a news item that is why it is being made a meal out of.our
journalist try to distant them self from religious affairs as much as they
possably can ,we are a secular country they say .but in this issue ,human Rights
,religious rights,constitutional issue,secularism and the rest of the Geneva
conventions comes into play.the papers can write what they want on this one
and they will get an audience.
Ginny Quick wrote:
Hello, Suntou, OK, now if members of the SIC are seen openly visiting
Jammeh for occasions like Eid, etc., and they don't take the
opportunity to advise him on things he is doing wrong (like using
Islam as a prop in his "ability to cure HIV/AIDS", just to name one
example), not to mention possibly even helping him in all of htis!
And to my knowledge, I've not seen any member of the Supreme Islamic
Counsel speaking out against Jammeh! Yet at the same time, they want
to excert some kind of "authority" in who and who doesn't publish
translations of the Qur'an and other Islamic texts, I have to conclude
that they prefer to use sleective authority!
Now if individual members of the council are speaking out against
Jammeh, that can only be a good thing, obviously, however I'm not
aware of it!
So to my mind I'm not "generalizing" as I am not aware of anyone
"speaking out", the comment you alluded to was made by someone
quietly, while the SIC's latest pronouncements are all over the media,
which leaves me with the impression that while some members of the
council probably do speak out against Jammeh, they'd rather do it
quietly, so as not to hurt their position. I mean, if Jammeh controls
all of the appoints right down to the local government councils now,
who's to say he can't just "appoint" people to this council?
And when I'm referring to the "council" I'm referring to the whole
council, and when the leader of hte council speaks out, I gather that
he's representing *all* of the council, and if he is not, then the
members who disagree with him need to voice that and not in the way of
haivng others speak for htem. In your example, you did not give a
name, a time, or a place, the person you referred to, as far as making
any public statements, has not done so! It's only an anecdotal
statement of "well I know someone who's a member of the council who
doesn't support Jammeh". That is all well and good, but when you have
the "leader" of the SIC making a statement, I would assume that he is
speaking for the whole concil, unless there is antoher public
statement to the contrary!
BTW, I love how my name gets mis-spelled even though it's right there
in the header of my message, but anyway.
Your points are well-taken, but I am not in total agreement iwth them.
Ginny
On 12/6/07, SUNTOU TOURAY wrote:
> HARUNA,THIS IS NOT ABOUT RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE.the Christan's have there
> council that over see the interest of the Gambian Christians and the
Muslims
> also have there own council.the ahamadiya should apply for there own
council
> to represent them in matters like this.but they don't wish to do that ,they
> intend to operate like a green snake on a green grass .if they so wish to
be
> under there own command the constitution allows them that privilege.let
them
> apply for there own authority which will not inter-fare with the rest of
the
> non-ahamadiya followers.
> as for Genny ,the usual accusation at sic is mostly wrong allegations.no
> one is perfect.if some members approve jammeh ,there are many who openly
> speak against him and his military machinery.lets not discredit our
scholars
> for political point.in-fact ,during my stay in the Gambia recently ,a
> scholar was ask to refrain from mentioning politics but his answer was
''GOD
> DON'T CARE WHO THE RULER IS ,SINCE THAT RULER HIMSELF IS SUBJECT TO GOD'S
> RULE ''.he also made a great speech against the military .he advice them to
> stop harassing fellow citizens and any such maltreatment of human beings
> warrant god's wrath.so not all scholars are genuine but not all of us are
> genuine also.this man is called Bakawsu Fofana .his samon can be access on
> www.iladinolong.com .
>
> Haruna Darbo wrote:
> Ladies & Gentlemen, Colleagues,
>
> I have followed the discussion on the apparent disagreement between the
> Supreme Islamic Council and the Ahmadiyya for the latter's translation of
> the
> Qur'an into some of our local languages. I must say I was both disappointed
> and
> confounded in some of the submissions.
>
> In my opinion, The Ahmadiyya are a missionary group like the Islamic
Council
> and the Christian council. They all vie for the spiritual life of Gambians.
> Since Gambia is not an Islamic republic, this matter seems to me a public
> policy conundrum than anything else. Citizens must not war over a public
> policy
> mistake. The policy makers ought to make the policy right and consider the
> debilitating effect of bad policy decisions on the citizenry.
>
> 1. The Islamic Council must not be given the title "The Supreme Islamic
> Council".
>
> 2. The Ahmadiyya, like the Christian Brotherhood, and their governing
> councils must never come under the purview of the Islamic Council without
> their
> acquiescence, and if I have any common sense at all, they will never, and
> rightfully so.
>
> 3. To foster religious fraternity and harmony, A "Council on Religion"
ought
> to be created with equal representatives from all religions, even the
> religions founded or to be founded by Gambians.
>
> 4. Gambia is a nation of religious tolerance and freedom of religion. It is
> a bad idea to feign preference for Islam. I am a muslim and I prefer the
> Islamic Lifestyle. However, to be a true muslim, I must recognize the
> freedoms of
> people of other faiths. Someone accepted the Ahmadiyya and Christian
> brotherhoods as missionaries in Gambia. They have done a lot of selfless
> good. They
> do not force anyone to convert. The Islamic brotherhood must follow the
> example of these other religions and remain honest to the divine spirit. It
> is not
> decided that Islam is the best religion for anyone's salvation. If we give
> the Islamic Council free reign over our spiritual lives at the expense of
> other
> spiritual nourishment, we will live to regret it and die to proceed to
> hellfire.
>
> Laa Hawala walaa khuwwata, Illa Billaah, Li-Aliyyul Atheem.
>
> Haroun Masoud. MQDT Darbo. Al Mutawakkil. If Islam is the best religion for
> salvation, I would like Allah, subhaanahu wa-ta aala, to take my life
before
> I awake in the morn.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Haroun Masoud
>
>
>
> **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's
hottest
> products.
> (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
>
> いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
> To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L
> Web interface
> at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html
>
> To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to:
> http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l
> To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to:
> [log in to unmask]
> いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
>
>
>
> いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
> To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L
> Web interface
> at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html
>
> To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to:
> http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l
> To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to:
> [log in to unmask]
> いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
>
>
--
Visit my blog at: http://www.ginnysthoughts.com
If you want to V-Me (call me) click here:
https://v-me.vonage.com/quickgm32
If you are a Vonage customer you can set up your V-Me service by clicking
here:
https://v-me.vonage.com/
Powered by VONAGE
www.vonage.com
いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L
Web interface
at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html
To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to:
http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l
To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to:
[log in to unmask]
いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L
Web interface
at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html
To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to:
http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l
To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to:
[log in to unmask]
いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
http://gambian.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
now.
いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L
Web interface
at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html
To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to:
http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l
To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to:
[log in to unmask]
いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L
Web interface
at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html
To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to:
http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l
To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to:
[log in to unmask]
いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
http://gambian.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L
Web interface
at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html
To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to:
http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l
To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to:
[log in to unmask]
いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface
at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html
To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l
To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to:
[log in to unmask]
いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
|
