Thank you Karim, you're too kind. I must say once and for all that I value
you, Ousman, and Suntou just as much if not more than you yield from from
association with me. I cherish the comraderie and communion. If I were to be made
aware of folly or inadequacy in any area of our relations, I will not
hesitate to ammend my position and views accordingly. That will be good for me.
Thank you all once again for enriching all our lives.
Haroun, for goodness sakes. MQDT. Darbo.
In a message dated 12/7/2007 5:57:23 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Haruna
You are so focus and you digest every peace of what you and agree and
disagree which makes your contribution on thematic issues so fertilized and for
many like myself so enlighten. Cross fertilization of ideas enriches both
academic and intellectual debate. Keep it up!
Haruna Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
"Suntou and Haruna" Karim.
Hi Karim, good to hear you.
"Ahmadiyya are muslims." Karim.
It would appear so. But I do not want to speak for Muslims or the Ahmadiyya.
Being Muslim, Christian, and or Ahmadiyya is a state of mind. Faith in the
unknown distilled in the books for missionary exploits.
"If extremist are using Islam to justify their violence against innocent
people because theological interpretation of islam why not Ahmadiyya none
violent but they challenge through scholarly and intellectualism of the Holy
Quran." Karim.
Karim, I donm't think the Ahmadiyya wish to be extremist for extremism
sakes. Besides, if I see any extremist translating the Bible or Qur'an
because
they are intellectuals I would suggest other enterprise for them to yield
more
value from extremism.
"Suntou belief me or not the Ahmadiyya are very scholarly with both the
Quran and the tradition of the holy Prophet Muhammed(May peace and Blessing
of
Allah be upon him)." Karim.
I agree with you here Karim. And the Ahmadiyya ought to be encouraged and
supported by the Ahmadiyya in their scholarly pursuits just as Muslims and
Christians ought to support and encourage pursuits in their faiths.
"We are know our sectarism in Islam but It does not warrant us to called
them non muslims." Karim.
I agree with you again. In fact non-Ahmadiyya ought not characterize the
Ahmadiyya as Muslim or non-muslim. That will make for religious tolerance.
Sectarianism is the purview of the Sectarian and I discourage Suntou from
such
tendencies were they to have been apparent in him. It is foolhardy.
Masoud. No Rashid this time. MQDT. Darbo. Al Mutawakkil. This is a legal
matter that can be pre-enmpted by the Ahmadiyya. It will represent a waste
of
resources in translation but that is the honourable thing to do for the
health
of the Ahmadiyya. Such activity will be counterproductive to their
missionary
exploits.
SUNTOU TOURAY wrote:
Masoud precisely my point as brother mo said earlier.The Pakistani
parliament pass a motion to the points you raised .they advice them to
either come out
clean about where they belong or stop using the name Islam and Muslim on
there missionary activity ,they refuse and then left for England where they
operate.no one have any hidden agenda against them ,let them operate where
ever
they so wish but that should be on a platform like the Bahia ,etc.
The movement was sued in Pakistan in the early 1980's to stop using the name
Islam whilst going against every commandment of the prophet of Islam.no
ill-feeling is intended against them ,we love our fellow country men and
women
who are ahamadiya but there is a limit we can tolerate .i hope the situation
is
amicably solved.
Haruna Darbo wrote:
The Ahmadiyya must cease and desist from translating the Qur'an EVEN IN
ENGLISH.
They will have to be brought before a court of law in every nation by
Christians and Muslims. Christians also because it is just a matter of time
before
some idiot tries to translate the bible according to his/her own
understanding for people who do not speak English. Translation without
express permission
by appropriate authority, especially with a view to affect intent and
meaning of religion, is a crime. The Islamic council (They should jettison
the
Supreme), is the appropriate authority for Gambia muslims.
The Ahmadiyya ought to write their own scriptures if they wish to play
missionary in Gambia. Then they can translate those scriptures in any of a
multitude of languages. The prior and on-going goodwill and philanthropy of
the
Ahmadiyya risks being tarnished and must not be considered in this
ill-advised
encroachment on the health of any other religion. I hope they
un-trans-friggin-late and save us all from anxiety. They must not wait for
the Islamic council
to advise them of propriety. They have been pioneers in propriety. I am very
disappointed in them. Barring their conduct in propriety, the Islamic
council ought to file suit for an injunction and a withdrawal of their
Gambia
charter. Each nation's Islamic council should independently deal with this
matter:
Senegal, Mali, Ghana, Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Sierra Leone, etcetera. We don't
have time for this.
Haruna.
In a message dated 12/7/2007 12:39:20 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Ousman ,even in the u.s where you are based ,religion get hot some times but
that doesn't mean people are intolerant of one of another ,it only indicate
how some take God's business more passionately than others.just yesterday
the
U.S presidential hopeful from Salt lake city is trying hard to avoid
questions about his Mormonism .why should educated,civilise and democratic
America
be worrying itself with a Mormon president ?
the guy's name is Mitt Romney .President Kenny dodge his catholic religion
question all during his time in office why ?He was forced to make a
statement
that he will not take orders from the Vatican .
I am not being intolerant,i just want clarity in things that's all.The
ahamadiya English Quran usually have the name AHAMADIYA TRANSLATION.if that
is the
case then fine ,no one will get deceived.
Ousman Ceesay wrote:
Suntou,
What is troubling to most of us on this issue is the authoritarian way the
SIC is trying to operate. Take this sentence from their press release for
instance:
"According to the release presidential directives have earlier been issued
to the effect that there should be no publication or radio programmes in
Islamic matters without the approval of the council."
So the SIC armed with a presidential directive is demanding that citizens of
a secular nation get permission from them before exercising what is
purportedly an act between them and their God.
Ginny is right to bring up the hypocrisy factor. Yahya is using the Quran in
his AIDS cure madness. If you watch the video, you will see him rubbing some
kind of ointment on a semi-nude woman with one hand, while holding the Quran
in the other.Did you hear a word from Bading Drammeh on that issue? However,
when it comes to the Ahmadis translating the Quran and announcing it's
availability...well how dare they? The president said nobody in the Gambia
can do
that without Bading and his mighty Supreme council.
Meanwhile we have civil rights activist like yourself (Suntou) letting your
theological disagreement with the Ahmadis cloud your judgment in a blatant
case of religious intolerance.
SUNTOU TOURAY wrote: Ginny,sorry for the misspelling of your name ,it was an
over-site.Ginny if you are conversant with the advice of the messenger of
Islam concerning scholars dealing with rulers you will realise that the sic
did
not do any thing wrong by not openly confronting our mad president.
Think back to many years ago what happen in Somalia when scholars try to
intervene in matters of politics.many scholars were killed by the communist
regime in power and since then somalia never have any respite.again when
scholars
try to get involve it will the same media people who will start banging on
about our coveted secularism . In our day and age Islam is label with all
sorts of names and you want yahya to join that bandwagon? if imam fatty for
instance start using his sermons to castigate yahya ,he will be locked up
like
hydara was locked up.did you heard about Imam Hydara of airport mosque ?
Scholars most use Hikma or wisdom in dealing with sitting leaders.we have
politicians who can challenge the president using the secular constitutions
of our
country ,no problem.to accuse an imam or scholar of being a T today is very
easy
.so yes members of the SIC need to do more when it comes to advising yahya
,but since when did yahya start listening to any one? yahya knows
he is not suppose do what he is doing .
on subject of visiting the president in state house on days of eid,that was
a tradition from the days of jawara .the Christan's too visit the president .
many scholars don't get media attention because that is not news,but the
press release was a news item that is why it is being made a meal out of.our
journalist try to distant them self from religious affairs as much as they
possably can ,we are a secular country they say .but in this issue ,human
Rights
,religious rights,constitutional issue,secularism and the rest of the Geneva
conventions comes into play.the papers can write what they want on this one
and they will get an audience.
Ginny Quick wrote:
Hello, Suntou, OK, now if members of the SIC are seen openly visiting
Jammeh for occasions like Eid, etc., and they don't take the
opportunity to advise him on things he is doing wrong (like using
Islam as a prop in his "ability to cure HIV/AIDS", just to name one
example), not to mention possibly even helping him in all of htis!
And to my knowledge, I've not seen any member of the Supreme Islamic
Counsel speaking out against Jammeh! Yet at the same time, they want
to excert some kind of "authority" in who and who doesn't publish
translations of the Qur'an and other Islamic texts, I have to conclude
that they prefer to use sleective authority!
Now if individual members of the council are speaking out against
Jammeh, that can only be a good thing, obviously, however I'm not
aware of it!
So to my mind I'm not "generalizing" as I am not aware of anyone
"speaking out", the comment you alluded to was made by someone
quietly, while the SIC's latest pronouncements are all over the media,
which leaves me with the impression that while some members of the
council probably do speak out against Jammeh, they'd rather do it
quietly, so as not to hurt their position. I mean, if Jammeh controls
all of the appoints right down to the local government councils now,
who's to say he can't just "appoint" people to this council?
And when I'm referring to the "council" I'm referring to the whole
council, and when the leader of hte council speaks out, I gather that
he's representing *all* of the council, and if he is not, then the
members who disagree with him need to voice that and not in the way of
haivng others speak for htem. In your example, you did not give a
name, a time, or a place, the person you referred to, as far as making
any public statements, has not done so! It's only an anecdotal
statement of "well I know someone who's a member of the council who
doesn't support Jammeh". That is all well and good, but when you have
the "leader" of the SIC making a statement, I would assume that he is
speaking for the whole concil, unless there is antoher public
statement to the contrary!
BTW, I love how my name gets mis-spelled even though it's right there
in the header of my message, but anyway.
Your points are well-taken, but I am not in total agreement iwth them.
Ginny
On 12/6/07, SUNTOU TOURAY wrote:
> HARUNA,THIS IS NOT ABOUT RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE.the Christan's have there
> council that over see the interest of the Gambian Christians and the
Muslims
> also have there own council.the ahamadiya should apply for there own
council
> to represent them in matters like this.but they don't wish to do that ,they
> intend to operate like a green snake on a green grass .if they so wish to
be
> under there own command the constitution allows them that privilege.let
them
> apply for there own authority which will not inter-fare with the rest of
the
> non-ahamadiya followers.
> as for Genny ,the usual accusation at sic is mostly wrong allegations.no
> one is perfect.if some members approve jammeh ,there are many who openly
> speak against him and his military machinery.lets not discredit our
scholars
> for political point.in-fact ,during my stay in the Gambia recently ,a
> scholar was ask to refrain from mentioning politics but his answer was
''GOD
> DON'T CARE WHO THE RULER IS ,SINCE THAT RULER HIMSELF IS SUBJECT TO GOD'S
> RULE ''.he also made a great speech against the military .he advice them to
> stop harassing fellow citizens and any such maltreatment of human beings
> warrant god's wrath.so not all scholars are genuine but not all of us are
> genuine also.this man is called Bakawsu Fofana .his samon can be access on
> www.iladinolong.com .
>
> Haruna Darbo wrote:
> Ladies & Gentlemen, Colleagues,
>
> I have followed the discussion on the apparent disagreement between the
> Supreme Islamic Council and the Ahmadiyya for the latter's translation of
> the
> Qur'an into some of our local languages. I must say I was both disappointed
> and
> confounded in some of the submissions.
>
> In my opinion, The Ahmadiyya are a missionary group like the Islamic
Council
> and the Christian council. They all vie for the spiritual life of Gambians.
> Since Gambia is not an Islamic republic, this matter seems to me a public
> policy conundrum than anything else. Citizens must not war over a public
> policy
> mistake. The policy makers ought to make the policy right and consider the
> debilitating effect of bad policy decisions on the citizenry.
>
> 1. The Islamic Council must not be given the title "The Supreme Islamic
> Council".
>
> 2. The Ahmadiyya, like the Christian Brotherhood, and their governing
> councils must never come under the purview of the Islamic Council without
> their
> acquiescence, and if I have any common sense at all, they will never, and
> rightfully so.
>
> 3. To foster religious fraternity and harmony, A "Council on Religion"
ought
> to be created with equal representatives from all religions, even the
> religions founded or to be founded by Gambians.
>
> 4. Gambia is a nation of religious tolerance and freedom of religion. It
is
> a bad idea to feign preference for Islam. I am a muslim and I prefer the
> Islamic Lifestyle. However, to be a true muslim, I must recognize the
> freedoms of
> people of other faiths. Someone accepted the Ahmadiyya and Christian
> brotherhoods as missionaries in Gambia. They have done a lot of selfless
> good. They
> do not force anyone to convert. The Islamic brotherhood must follow the
> example of these other religions and remain honest to the divine spirit. It
> is not
> decided that Islam is the best religion for anyone's salvation. If we give
> the Islamic Council free reign over our spiritual lives at the expense of
> other
> spiritual nourishment, we will live to regret it and die to proceed to
> hellfire.
>
> Laa Hawala walaa khuwwata, Illa Billaah, Li-Aliyyul Atheem.
>
> Haroun Masoud. MQDT Darbo. Al Mutawakkil. If Islam is the best religion for
> salvation, I would like Allah, subhaanahu wa-ta aala, to take my life
before
> I awake in the morn.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Haroun Masoud
>
>
>
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