Ousman
Thanks for such an intellectual perspectives about religion and seperation of the state. If I can remember three years or four years ago about the posting of Momodou Sidibeth in the Gambia-l serialising the sociological analysis about the transformation of Gambian society into religoius intolerant, the press release from the Supreme Islamic Council remindered me such academic piece of research. I agree with Haruna and the secular nature of our state, the word supreme is even a mockery tolerant and adovoacy for religious freedom. The difference between Ahmadiyya and other muslim sect is theology but the fundamentals of constitutionality have to prevail with all other religions in our country.
Ousman Ceesay <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Suntou,
The separation of church and state in the United States is well defined. Mitt Romney is running for the nomination of a party that has an Evangelical base. These block of voters have an agenda and he (romney) feels he needs to be in their good books to win his party's nomination.
The difference between what is happening in American politics and the SIC issue is that the government hasn't appoint anyone to be the arbiter of what a citizen or group of citizens in the country can do when it comes to matters of faith. If I have the wisdom and knowledge to translate the Quran into any language, there is no entity in the United States that will release a press statement telling the citizenry that they have a presidential directive mandating them to regulate my right to free religious expression.
Are there religious zealots in the united states? You bet. The Mormon issue is one example. Obama has been fighting the Muslim rumor since he entered the race. A Clinton campaign aide in Iowa was caught this week sending out emails talking of a Muslim conspiracy to take over America through Barack Obama.
You can argue with Ahmadis over theology for all I care, but once SIC use the power of the state to try and regulate the religious adherence of citizens, who attest to a belief they disagree with, we are trending towards a dangerous path.
SUNTOU TOURAY wrote: Ousman ,even in the u.s where you are based ,religion get hot some times but that doesn't mean people are intolerant of one of another ,it only indicate how some take God's business more passionately than others.just yesterday the U.S presidential hopeful from Salt lake city is trying hard to avoid questions about his Mormonism .why should educated,civilise and democratic America be worrying itself with a Mormon president ?
the guy's name is Mitt Romney .President Kenny dodge his catholic religion question all during his time in office why ?He was forced to make a statement that he will not take orders from the Vatican .
I am not being intolerant,i just want clarity in things that's all.The ahamadiya English Quran usually have the name AHAMADIYA TRANSLATION.if that is the case then fine ,no one will get deceived.
Ousman Ceesay wrote:
Suntou,
What is troubling to most of us on this issue is the authoritarian way the SIC is trying to operate. Take this sentence from their press release for instance:
"According to the release presidential directives have earlier been issued to the effect that there should be no publication or radio programmes in Islamic matters without the approval of the council."
So the SIC armed with a presidential directive is demanding that citizens of a secular nation get permission from them before exercising what is purportedly an act between them and their God.
Ginny is right to bring up the hypocrisy factor. Yahya is using the Quran in his AIDS cure madness. If you watch the video, you will see him rubbing some kind of ointment on a semi-nude woman with one hand, while holding the Quran in the other.Did you hear a word from Bading Drammeh on that issue? However, when it comes to the Ahmadis translating the Quran and announcing it's availability...well how dare they? The president said nobody in the Gambia can do that without Bading and his mighty Supreme council.
Meanwhile we have civil rights activist like yourself (Suntou) letting your theological disagreement with the Ahmadis cloud your judgment in a blatant case of religious intolerance.
SUNTOU TOURAY wrote: Ginny,sorry for the misspelling of your name ,it was an over-site.Ginny if you are conversant with the advice of the messenger of Islam concerning scholars dealing with rulers you will realise that the sic did not do any thing wrong by not openly confronting our mad president.
Think back to many years ago what happen in Somalia when scholars try to intervene in matters of politics.many scholars were killed by the communist regime in power and since then somalia never have any respite.again when scholars try to get involve it will the same media people who will start banging on about our coveted secularism . In our day and age Islam is label with all sorts of names and you want yahya to join that bandwagon? if imam fatty for instance start using his sermons to castigate yahya ,he will be locked up like hydara was locked up.did you heard about Imam Hydara of airport mosque ? Scholars most use Hikma or wisdom in dealing with sitting leaders.we have politicians who can challenge the president using the secular constitutions of our country ,no problem.to accuse an imam or scholar of being a T today is very easy .so yes members of the SIC need to do more when it comes to advising yahya ,but since when did yahya start listening to any one? yahya knows
he is not suppose do what he is doing .
on subject of visiting the president in state house on days of eid,that was a tradition from the days of jawara .the Christan's too visit the president .
many scholars don't get media attention because that is not news,but the press release was a news item that is why it is being made a meal out of.our journalist try to distant them self from religious affairs as much as they possably can ,we are a secular country they say .but in this issue ,human Rights ,religious rights,constitutional issue,secularism and the rest of the Geneva conventions comes into play.the papers can write what they want on this one and they will get an audience.
Ginny Quick wrote:
Hello, Suntou, OK, now if members of the SIC are seen openly visiting
Jammeh for occasions like Eid, etc., and they don't take the
opportunity to advise him on things he is doing wrong (like using
Islam as a prop in his "ability to cure HIV/AIDS", just to name one
example), not to mention possibly even helping him in all of htis!
And to my knowledge, I've not seen any member of the Supreme Islamic
Counsel speaking out against Jammeh! Yet at the same time, they want
to excert some kind of "authority" in who and who doesn't publish
translations of the Qur'an and other Islamic texts, I have to conclude
that they prefer to use sleective authority!
Now if individual members of the council are speaking out against
Jammeh, that can only be a good thing, obviously, however I'm not
aware of it!
So to my mind I'm not "generalizing" as I am not aware of anyone
"speaking out", the comment you alluded to was made by someone
quietly, while the SIC's latest pronouncements are all over the media,
which leaves me with the impression that while some members of the
council probably do speak out against Jammeh, they'd rather do it
quietly, so as not to hurt their position. I mean, if Jammeh controls
all of the appoints right down to the local government councils now,
who's to say he can't just "appoint" people to this council?
And when I'm referring to the "council" I'm referring to the whole
council, and when the leader of hte council speaks out, I gather that
he's representing *all* of the council, and if he is not, then the
members who disagree with him need to voice that and not in the way of
haivng others speak for htem. In your example, you did not give a
name, a time, or a place, the person you referred to, as far as making
any public statements, has not done so! It's only an anecdotal
statement of "well I know someone who's a member of the council who
doesn't support Jammeh". That is all well and good, but when you have
the "leader" of the SIC making a statement, I would assume that he is
speaking for the whole concil, unless there is antoher public
statement to the contrary!
BTW, I love how my name gets mis-spelled even though it's right there
in the header of my message, but anyway.
Your points are well-taken, but I am not in total agreement iwth them.
Ginny
On 12/6/07, SUNTOU TOURAY wrote:
> HARUNA,THIS IS NOT ABOUT RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE.the Christan's have there
> council that over see the interest of the Gambian Christians and the Muslims
> also have there own council.the ahamadiya should apply for there own council
> to represent them in matters like this.but they don't wish to do that ,they
> intend to operate like a green snake on a green grass .if they so wish to be
> under there own command the constitution allows them that privilege.let them
> apply for there own authority which will not inter-fare with the rest of the
> non-ahamadiya followers.
> as for Genny ,the usual accusation at sic is mostly wrong allegations.no
> one is perfect.if some members approve jammeh ,there are many who openly
> speak against him and his military machinery.lets not discredit our scholars
> for political point.in-fact ,during my stay in the Gambia recently ,a
> scholar was ask to refrain from mentioning politics but his answer was ''GOD
> DON'T CARE WHO THE RULER IS ,SINCE THAT RULER HIMSELF IS SUBJECT TO GOD'S
> RULE ''.he also made a great speech against the military .he advice them to
> stop harassing fellow citizens and any such maltreatment of human beings
> warrant god's wrath.so not all scholars are genuine but not all of us are
> genuine also.this man is called Bakawsu Fofana .his samon can be access on
> www.iladinolong.com .
>
> Haruna Darbo wrote:
> Ladies & Gentlemen, Colleagues,
>
> I have followed the discussion on the apparent disagreement between the
> Supreme Islamic Council and the Ahmadiyya for the latter's translation of
> the
> Qur'an into some of our local languages. I must say I was both disappointed
> and
> confounded in some of the submissions.
>
> In my opinion, The Ahmadiyya are a missionary group like the Islamic Council
> and the Christian council. They all vie for the spiritual life of Gambians.
> Since Gambia is not an Islamic republic, this matter seems to me a public
> policy conundrum than anything else. Citizens must not war over a public
> policy
> mistake. The policy makers ought to make the policy right and consider the
> debilitating effect of bad policy decisions on the citizenry.
>
> 1. The Islamic Council must not be given the title "The Supreme Islamic
> Council".
>
> 2. The Ahmadiyya, like the Christian Brotherhood, and their governing
> councils must never come under the purview of the Islamic Council without
> their
> acquiescence, and if I have any common sense at all, they will never, and
> rightfully so.
>
> 3. To foster religious fraternity and harmony, A "Council on Religion" ought
> to be created with equal representatives from all religions, even the
> religions founded or to be founded by Gambians.
>
> 4. Gambia is a nation of religious tolerance and freedom of religion. It is
> a bad idea to feign preference for Islam. I am a muslim and I prefer the
> Islamic Lifestyle. However, to be a true muslim, I must recognize the
> freedoms of
> people of other faiths. Someone accepted the Ahmadiyya and Christian
> brotherhoods as missionaries in Gambia. They have done a lot of selfless
> good. They
> do not force anyone to convert. The Islamic brotherhood must follow the
> example of these other religions and remain honest to the divine spirit. It
> is not
> decided that Islam is the best religion for anyone's salvation. If we give
> the Islamic Council free reign over our spiritual lives at the expense of
> other
> spiritual nourishment, we will live to regret it and die to proceed to
> hellfire.
>
> Laa Hawala walaa khuwwata, Illa Billaah, Li-Aliyyul Atheem.
>
> Haroun Masoud. MQDT Darbo. Al Mutawakkil. If Islam is the best religion for
> salvation, I would like Allah, subhaanahu wa-ta aala, to take my life before
> I awake in the morn.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Haroun Masoud
>
>
>
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