Hi Ginny!
I think the issue people have with your contributions regarding Halifa 
and PDOIS is the doublethink that is inherent in them. You would for 
example in a single paragraph or post give the impression that Halifa 
indeed used his investigations and subsequent arrest to score political 
points and then turn around and say you don't think that he did for 
such a reason and that you credit him for standing up. For example, in 
one paragraph in your latest post you wrote: "And even if Suntou is 
wrong, which I think he is in this case, he has the right to offer his 
opinion...". You turned around and wrote:"I mean, if he's seeking to be 
President or Representative, or a political leader of some sort, he'd 
have to raise his political fortunes somehow..." and "Politicians make 
well, political calculations all the time.  whenever there's a 
disaster, they go and tour the area, whenever there's a problem or 
issue, they have some sort of theory of how to fix it, they're not 
necessarily doing it out of the kindness of their own heart.  Why 
should Halifa Sallah be any different? " Your posts on this issue are 
replete with such. When you want to generally deal with the issue of 
Halifa's investigations, you write investigations or fact-finding 
without any quotation marks. When you want to infer deceit in Halifa's 
actions you write "fact-finding" wrapped in quotation marks. Examples 
are: "Sallah could possibly be looking out for himself, politically, 
and trying to raise his political fortunes, by going on a "fact-
finding" mission regarding the witch hunt", "The facts as I see them 
are that Halifa went on a fact-finding mission...", "that if he'd known 
that he was going to get arrested, that he'd not have engaged in said 
fact-finding mission". Do you think that Halifa was on a fact-finding, 
a said fact-finding or a "fact-finding" mission? Yes, people are going 
to analyse words and sentences because it is through doing that people 
can discern the true meaning of statements and put them to the test.

Most or many people on on the L are also members of the Post. Ginny, 
your inference that PDOIS or Halifa sympathisers or supporters jump on 
anyone who dares to criticize Halifa or the party is not correct. You 
have on many occasions attacked, unjustifiably in my opinion, both and 
you have not been hounded. You have consistently blamed PDOIS 
supporters as being behind the failure of NADD 
because according to you they had ulterior motives. You have insinuated 
and stated that PDOIS supporters were only interested in seeing Halifa 
as the flagbearer and used underhand tactics to achieve this and when 
they failed to achieve their purpose, they came up with all kinds of 
excuses to discredit or otherwise stifle the coalition. If we are 
honest Ginny, the failure of NADD was due to multiple factors. 
Consistently stating that PDOIS supporters were to blame for the 
failure of NADD because of underhand tactics is not true and is not 
going to help the fight to get a united opposition in the future. On 
many occasions, the Halifa and PDOIS supporters just let you write what 
you felt. At some point though, people are going to challenge you for 
repeating the same stuff that they feel is not correct. Remember that 
there are people on the lists who were not here when the NADD thing was 
going on. If PDOIS supporters let you keep on repeating that they tried 
to get Halifa into the flagbearer position using untoward methods, some 
people might believe that it is true. That is why some decided to 
challenge you.

Another thing you keep repeating is that PDOIS and Halifa supporters 
cannot stand criticism or even the suggestion that Halifa can do wrong 
and you keep repeating this. Jabou, Bamba Laye, Mboge and Bailo have 
repeatedly tried to tell you that this is incorrect. Nobody is trying 
to tell you or anyone not to criticise Halifa. Criticise to your 
heart's content. However, the criticism should be based on fact. If you 
criticise Halifa for doing something in a wrong way or for failing to 
act when it was required that he acted, people will not fault you for 
that. However, if you insinuate things that are not true in your 
criticism, people are going to put you to task. Ginny, you were 
complaining a short while ago on the Post that people were ascribing 
things to you that were not true and were demeaning. These things 
happened years ago and you still feel hurt by them because you feel 
they were untrue. You of all people should then know better than 
ascribe things to people. 

With regard to people having difficulty accepting that Halifa can be 
deceitful, many people know Halifa on a personal level and have been 
privy to his actions since he entered politics and know how consistent 
he has been. If someone comes here and tries to ascribe to Halifa 
actions that are untrue and antithetic to what they know about him, you 
bet people will be surprised and some will be mad. If I went to your 
friends and told them that you were what you claim you were being 
accused of on the Post, some of them will be surprised, some will 
defend you and some will get mad. This is not because Ginny is not 
human and infallible. It is because they know Ginny and what actions 
can be associated with her. Thanks and have a good evening.
Buharry.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----Original Message----
From: [log in to unmask]
Date: 2009-04-17 21:07 
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Subj: Re: The Halifa Factor, what next?/Ginny

The facts as I see them are that Halifa went on a fact-finding
mission, regarding the "witch-hunting exercise), was arrested and had
charges brought against him.  Suntou is of the opinion that Halifa
Sallah was doing this for his own political gain/fortune, and that if
he'd known that he was going to get arrested, that he'd not have
engaged in said fact-finding mission,and if Suntou is making these
assertions, A. are they correct?  and B. if they are, is this
necessarily a bad thing?

When the insinuation was made that Halifa Sallah was acting in his own
political interest, instead of that of the Gambian people,  we once
again waded in to the "Sallah would never do that" argument...  The
issue seems to me that it's not whether or not Sallah acted in his own
interest or not, but the fact that many can't fathom that Sallah could
possibly be looking out for himself, politically, and trying to raise
his political fortunes, by going on a "fact-finding" mission regarding
the witch hunt.  I mean, if he's seeking to be President or
Representative, or a political leader of some sort, he'd have to raise
his political fortunes somehow, he'd have to find some way to get
elected, so how does he do this?

Politicians make well, political calculations all the time.  whenever
there's a disaster, they go and tour the area, whenever there's a
problem or issue, they have some sort of theory of how to fix it,
they're not necessarily doing it out of the kindness of their own
heart.  Why should Halifa Sallah be any different?  Is it possible
that acting in the best interest of The Gambia is a political gesture
in and of itself.

And even if Suntou is wrong, which I think he is in this case, he has
the right to offer his opinion, and to offer reasons for why he holds
that opinion.  And everyone else who disagrees has the right to
challenge him on it.  Perhaps it's not happened in this particular
conversation (though I do see it to some degree, just on the emotional
outbursts of some alone), that saying anything deemed as "wrong" or
"bad" about Halifa Sallah is deemed as a sort of treason or a
sacrilege.  If Sallah doesn't want a position of leadership and
authority/power, why is he in politics in the first place?  If he
wants to speak out against The Gambia government, he could well do
that on his own.  If he wants representation in Parliament, etc., then
he could just sponsor a candidate or campaign on a candidates behalf,
but then we're back to the same place we started, that Sallah is
involved in politics, even if it may be indirectly.

My point is that Halifa is held up as the selfless, courageous fighter
of The Gambian people, I've even heard/read some refer to him as the
"Mandela of The Gambia", and that he doesn't seek power for power's
sake, etc.  And this may all be true.  However, this doesn't preclude
the notion that he may, in his quest to fight for the Gambian people,
make some political decisions/calculations at some point in time.

At any rate, this was a futile argument to begin with and I'm
wondering why Suntou even brought it up?  What good is this going to
do?  What good is it going to do in united an opposition for the next
election?  (Is that even on the table anymore?)  And why are we
bringing up Darboe's 1996 Incident?  Again, I'm not saying that I
agree or disagree with it, but why now?  What is to be gained by
talking about these two things incessantly?  Even if Darboe was wrong
for running off to the Senegalese embassy, and even if Sallah was
somehow "politically calculating"?  What is the point of bringing this
up, except to engender more animosity and bitterness between people
that really need to find a way to unite?

And if you can't unite with or get behind Sallah, or you can't unite
with or get behind Darboe, based on their political beliefs or their
past mistakes, if you don't like the current leaders in The Gambia,
what then?  It seems to me that we've got a certain segment of people
(and not necessarily all PDOIS supporters or all UDP supporters for
that matter), who will not compromise on anything, who will not
entertain any other position or idea other than the one they currently
support.

Perhaps I've missed the boat big time but I'm sure there'll be another
one along shortly and maybe next time I'll get it.

Although I'd imagine that if I completely agreed with the pro-Halifa
people in this particular discussion, I'd miraculously develop a keen
intelligence, a knack for understanding "Gambian issues", I'd all of a
sudden go from being someone who's "missed the boat big time", and
would morph into a certified genius.  See how those things work?

Again, you see it in this country too, if you listen to talk radio, or
at least Conservative talk radio, you'll hear the hosts talk about how
if you don't agree with them, then there's something patently wrong
with you, they talk about their views being "the truth".  And to be
fair, you also see it among Liberals too.  And I don't think that
Gambian political discussions are any different, at least when we're
talking about the opposition.  "The truth" to my mind is relative to
the person you're talking to.  One person's "cowardice" is another
person's "courage".  One person's "selflessness" is another person's
"political calculation".  It just depends on who you're talking to.

We're just not agreeing and no amount of back and forth is going to
change that.

Ginny



On 4/17/09, [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> The ramble is extremely valuable, appropriate, and visionary. And I 
read
> every word of it.
>
> Ginny I'll give you a hint:
> Your fair review of all political parties and their leaders of Gambia 
IS
> NOT WHAT BRINGS OUT THE DAGGERS. I just want you to know that.
>
> Some time just after the nadd dissolution and UDP/NRP's withdrawal 
from the
>  gaucherie, The GDP had invited UDP and NRP officials in order to 
fashion a
>  reconvening of minds around some coalescing of forces. You were kind
> enough to  grace a meeting of Hon. Hamat Bah. You spoke gloriously of 
him
> and he
> spoke  admirably of you both here and in Gambia. On your blog, there 
is
> publication  dedicated to Hamat, the Man.
>
> So in life's mirages, and being an enhanced human being, you will not
> understand why you solicit venom from some corners, even as you give 
praise
> to
> their dear leader. The mentality and level of development is such 
that not
> only  is disagreement a harbinger of derision and contemptuous libel, 
but so
> is the  commendation and "praise" of phantom enemies.
>
> I hope this keeps things in better perspective for you. I am 
concerned that
>  you will blame yourself for your good self. And it has nothing 
(virtually
> nothing) to do with Ginny. What it risks doing is intimidating you to 
a
> point  where you recede in human terms to meet your detractors at the 
lower
> ebb
> of  life. I advise you stay true north. And enjoy life with your 
trademark
> considerations.
> Haruna.
>
>
> In a message dated 4/16/2009 10:21:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
> I wasn't  necessarily saying that anyone said, word for word, that
> Halifa Sallah  wasn't human.  And wasn't prone to mistakes.  I merely
> pointed  that fact out, as an aside, because every time Halifa Sallah
> is discussed,  and/or criticized in anyway, the claws come out.  And 
I
> mean every  time!  I almost guarantee you that if you scream Halifa
> Sallah on a  crowded list, it's bound to evoke some kinda response.
> And I also think  that some of his supporters idolize him, put him on 
a
> pedestal, darn near  worship him, and anyone can disagree with me on
> this point if you want,  however, from what I've seen, anyone who
> criticizes him (rightly or  wrongly), gets all kinds of stuff flung 
at
> them, and we get the same old  tired lecture of how great he is for 
The
> Gambia, and how much he's done for  the Gambian people.  Which may or
> may not be true, that's not even the  point I'm addressing.  However,
> the unspoken rule seems to be that  criticism of Halifa Sallah is off
> limits.  Now this may, or may not,  be true.  Maybe he has, or can't 
do
> anything wrong.  Maybe the  criticism has taken place off list.  I
> don't know.
>
> I'll say  (once again as this seems to be getting lost in the 
shuffle),
> that I  commend Halifa Sallah for speaking out and doing what he 
could
> to get at  the truth of what actually took place.  And I think that
> questioning  his motives, just for the sake of questioning them,
> without any proof to  substantiate any of the claims made in
> questioning his motives, is wrong  and is over the top.  OK?  Now, if
> anyone has any substantiated  claims that Sallah was acting in his 
own
> self-interest, or for his own  political gains, let's post hard facts
> here, and not just mere speculation  and inuendo.  Let's not disagree
> with Halifa Sallah just for the sake  of disagreeing with him.
>
> I have wondered, though, why Halifa Sallah and  the PDOIS party has
> failed to gain traction with the Gambian people.   And when I've 
asked
> this question, the inference I get is that the Gambian  people, by 
and
> large, are not politically mature enough, not educated  enough, and 
are
> too tribalistic in their mindset, to choose what's best for  them 
(read
> Sallah).  Now, if one thinks so low of the people they  supposedly 
are
> trying to fight for, the people you supposedly want to have  freedom,
> democracy, the rule of law, etc., doesn't that mean that they  should
> be allowed to support the candidate of their choosing?  Even if  it's
> not Sallah?  Is Sallah (and the other opposition politicians as  
well)
> fighting for the Gambian people, or are they fighting for their  own
> political gains?  And if Sallah is so different than the  other
> opposition politicians, how so?  What has he done that say,  Darboe 
(a
> human rights lawyer mind you) hasn't?
>
> Sallah might be the  best thing for The Gambia (I'll steer away from
> the "sliced bread"  comparison as it might offend some), however, the
> hard fact is that the  majority of Gambians do *not* support him!  
Now,
> how can you get  support from people when you infer (or right out 
say)
> that the constituency  that you're asking to vote for you is too 
stupid
> and uneducated to do  so?  Now Sallah may not have said this himself,
> but I've heard/seen it  from his supporters enough...  And I'd
> personally not support someone  who insults my intelligence or thinks
> me stupid.
>
> It seems that all  of the opposition leaders' supporters aren't that
> much different than  Jammeh's supporters.  You criticize their 
leaders,
> the claws will come  out, you'll get called all kinds of names, and 
be
> asked to prove (with  supporting messages, footnotes, and
> documentation) every letter, word,  sentence, that you utter.  And in
> the process of the back-and-forth,  we lose sight of what the actual
> goal is.  Perhaps if we remember what  the ultimate goal is, which is
> to restore democracy and the rule of law to  The Gambia (or at least
> that's what I thought it was), then we can put our  differences aside
> to achieve that goal and then worry about the back and  forth 
bickering
> later.  However, it seems that you have a group of  people who would
> rather have Jammeh in power, than to see anyone else  butHalifa 
Sallah
> as the next President of The Gambia.
>
> All of the  opposition leaders, imho, have done something, in their 
own
> way, to  challenge the current regime in power.  They'd not be
> opposition  leaders if they had not done something...  Maybe it 
wasn't
> exactly  what Sallah was or is doing, but if it's not, does it mean
> that how they  choose to stand up to the dictatorship is necessarily
> "wrong", or that  because they're not acting as PDOIS/Sallah woudl 
act,
> that that makes them  power hungry, selfish, etc.?
>
> And this is why we can't unite!   Because some do not have respect 
for
> the parties they don't agree with,  they've put Sallah way up here, 
and
> the rest of the opposition leaders way  down here.  And will come on
> the list and say they want a united  opposition no matter what, while
> trashing some of the opposition  candidates.
>
> I'm going to use American politics as an example again (and  my
> apologies as this seems to offend some too), but do you think  Obama
> would have gotten elected if he trashed Hillary and her  supporters
> after he'd won the primary?  Or, vice versa, i.e., what if  Hillary
> and/or her supporters had continued trashing Obama after he'd won,  
and
> the democratic party had remained divided?  What I'm trying to say  
is
> that for the most part, even Democrats and Independents, for  that
> matter, rallied around Obama even if they didn't necessarily  agree
> with him, in order to get rid of Bush and not allow McCain to  get
> elected.  They were able to put their smaller differences aside  and
> focus on the bigger goal of ousting the Republicans from the  White
> House as well as from many seats in Congress.
>
> Now, if people  can't even do that here on this list, when we're
> supposedly dealing with  mature and educated people, how do we expect
> the leaders to be able to do  it?  And even if the leaders were able 
to
> come together, what about  their supporters?
>
> You've got one person rehashing an event that  happened in 1996, per
> Darboe, and another person questioning the supposed  ulterior motives
> of a guy who, for whatever reason, put his life on the  line for 
asking
> questions...  i.e. Sallah...  And this is just a  waste of time and
> we're losing site of the big picture here!
>
> My  nuanced view, that many either missed or chose to only focus on  
the
> critical of Sallah parts, is that Sallah stood up and spoke  out
> *more*, hear me?  I said *more than* any of the other leaders that  
we
> knew of!  I was commending him for this.  However, based not  only on
> this current conversation but past exchanges regarding  Sallah,
> criticism of him is not tolerated, even if it may be  warranted!  I
> also said that Sallah has done a lot in educating the  people in
> electoral matters (and that was missed too), however, the fact  still
> remains that PDOIS is still a small party in The Gambia.  And  the 
fact
> also is that many say that he and PDOIS urged people to support  an
> admittedly flawed Constitution, the reason being that a  flawed
> Constitution coudl be changed later and it was better than  no
> Constitution at all.  However, that's pretty much water under  the
> bridge (just as Darboe's seeking refuge with the Senegalese  embassy
> should also be water under the bridge), because even if we would  
have
> had a perfect Constitution, Jammeh has all but ruined it, and if  the
> Freedom Newspaper *shudder* is accurate, Jammeh's fixing to  *oops,
> there's the Tennessee coming out* put up a bill making The Gambia  a
> one-party state.  What will the opposition do then?  Where will  the
> endless quoting of the Constitution get anyone then?
>
> You see,  many times I tend to have a pretty nuanced opinion about
> things.  And  many I think, missed that.
>
> Anyway...  this old argument regarding  Sallah/the opposition, in
> general, is an old and tired one, and I'm sorry  that I wasted my 
time,
> and others' time, getting involved in  it.
>
> Although the emotional quips of "going back to Clarksville and  
telling
> the hibbies" along with my supposedly thinking my opinions superior  
to
> others (but they were didn't ya know?  'cause I'm educated and  all
> that) have kept me laughing all day...  And such an emotional  
reaction
> from presumably PDOIS/Sallah supporters have proven my point, that  
any
> kind of disagreement, or even mere suggestion that perhaps  something
> else different should be tried, can't be tolerated, unless of  
course,
> the great and wonderful Sallah says it should be so...  And  Maybe
> Sallah is a great and wonderful leader, and I'm just not seeing  it.
>
> I've just not been the type to put people on pedestals.  Even  Obama,
> who I think, for the most part, is doing good for this country,  I
> don't always agree with.
>
> Anyway, I've rambled on long  enough...
>
> Ginny
>
>
>
> On 4/16/09, Jabou Joh  <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Ginny,
>>
>> Where in the  responses of those who are challenging the 
misinformation
> about
>>  Halifa's intentions or anything else that is said about him for 
that
> matter,
>> have you read where any of us have even suggested that Halifa  is 
not
> human
>> and does not make mistakes?
>> Jabou  Joh
>>
>> But last I checked, he was human just like the rest of us,  he's not
> perfect,
>> and just like the other opposition leaders (who by  being opposition
> leaders
>> and human rights lawyers, etc., have also put  their lives on the 
line for
>> The Gambia), have also made  mistakes.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>  From: Ginny Quick <[log in to unmask]>
>> To:  [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:01 am
>>  Subject: Re: The Halifa Factor, what next?
>>
>>
>>
>> You  know, I could care less *why* Halifa did what he did!  If 
others
> want  to
>> question his motives than go right ahead...  However, the fact  of 
the
> matter
>> remains that he went on a fact-finding mission  regarding the
> "witch-hunts",
>> was arrested for it, and had charges  brought against him!  Where 
were the
>> other politicians while  all of this was going on?  He was the most
> outspoken
>> out of all  of the opposition politicians.
>>
>>
>>
>> Having said  that, though, just like the Republicans and Democrats 
in this
>> country  can't do anything right in the other's eyes, so goes with 
the
>> various  opposition parties (and their supporters) in The Gambia.  
If it
> had
>> been Ousainou Darbo or someone else, then someone would probably  be
> coming
>> along and questioning Ousainou's motives
>>   too.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't think that anyone in PDOIS is any  more or less prone to 
hero
> worship
>> than a supporter from any other  party, but I've always detected a 
hint
> of, I
>> can't find the right word  for it, but a hint of defensiveness and 
and a
>> sorta cult-like  hero-worship where Halifa is concerned, though this
>> definitely  doesn't hold true for every PDOIS supporter.  And Halifa 
is
>>  human, prone to error, just like anyone else, though if you listen 
to
> some
>> people talk, he's the best thing since sliced bread, and if you  
don't
>> support him, then there's something wrong with you, you're  stupid,
>> uneducated, or any number of  invectives.
>>
>>
>>
>> Notwithstanding all of this, at  least in the most recent case of
>> witch-hunting, no matter why Halifa  did what he did, he did it!  
And if
>> anyone wants to  question Halifa's motives for doing so, I'd like a 
little
>> more  than speculation, i.e., direct quotes, hard evidence, etc., 
for
>>  example, to sit there and say "if Halifa knew he'd be arrested, 
he'd  not
>> have done what he did".  Which doesn't make sense to me  because if 
memory
>> serves me, Halifa has been detained before, so  surely he knew that 
his
>> actions could well land him in detention of  some sort.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyway, I've only read through some  of the posts as the back-and-
forth
> was
>> giving me a headache.  And  it's just the same old "Halifa is
> selfish/thinks
>> we're  stupid/whatever" meme against Halifa, and the "Halifa is 
great and
>>  wonderful and how dare you question him/we all k
>> now what you're  trying to do/you're trying to tarnish the image of 
the
> most
>> courageous  Gambian to ever walk the face of the earth/what you're 
saying
>> about  Halifa is patently untrue", on the other side.
>>
>>
>>
>>  And from my vantage point, the true is probably somewhere in the 
middle
> of
>> those two extremes.  Halifa hs done much to educate Gambians,  has 
done
> much
>> to empower them electorally, and he has put his life on  the line to
> stand up
>> for Gambians.  But last I checked, he was  human just like the rest 
of us,
>> he's not perfect, and just like the  other opposition leaders (who 
by
> being
>> opposition leaders and human  rights lawyers, etc., have also put 
their
> lives
>> on the line for The  Gambia), have also made mistakes.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Ginny
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To
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