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Keith and Chuck

Thanks for the comments.  I will try and find that book on walking.  My
trainer has one evry Queensland bodybuilding title and recently came second
in the Masters Olympia.  At 59 he looks fantastic.  He recommends walking
but not jogging as he feels it helps you lose muscle as well as fat and
doesn't feel that you need it.

As for Aborigines running down food I have only ever read one of one example
of an Aborigine chasing a kangaroo for two days and IIRC he wasn't running
after it, simply walking.  Although I couldn't see how this would tire it
out.  If you run after a kangaroo and stop they will bound ahead a few
hundred metres and stop so you would have to keep running for a long time
given the distance they can cover in a bound to tire them out.

A friend of mine who went out with a hunter in Africa said that they tracked
an animal at a jog all day but I wonder that is not the original
environment.  Generally food for Aborigines seems to have been plentiful so
I wonder whether chasing an animal for days at a time was more the norm
post-contact when traditional hunting grounds had been depleted.
If anyone comes across any instance of Aborigines running after animals for
long periods of time I'd be interested to hear about it,

Cheers

Sean

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Subject: EVOLUTIONARY-FITNESS Digest - 10 Dec 2003 to 11 Dec 2003 (#2003-83)


> There are 3 messages totalling 181 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
>   1. Jogging (3)
>
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date:    Thu, 11 Dec 2003 07:50:21 +1000
> From:    sean mcbride <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Jogging
>
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> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I found the bias against jogging thread very interesting as I jogged on
and
> off for the past 20 years having been sold on Cooper's aerobics way back.
> Nowadays at 44 years old I'm not so sure.
>
> When I was with the commandos a big part of our fitness training was
jogging
> (actually more running) with the theory being that we might have to get
from
> A to B quickly and still be fit enough to fight.
>
> However, I am pretty slim anyway and with all the running I was even
> skinnier.  A warrant officer came up to me one day and asked me if I was
> sick due to my emaciated look.  Now it is true that I was fit but fit for
> what? To run reasonably fast over 5km.  To maintain a jogging pace with
army
> webbing (about 12kg) for 10km in an hour, and to jog (shuffle) with a 25kg
> pack for 20 miles (32km) in less than 5 hrs.  These were all green beret
> tests and you became fit enough to do these specific tests if you trained.
> But where in the real world (and also the world of hunter gatherers) would
> you need it.
>
> Although there are instances of tribal people who ran long distances
> (apaches running down horses comes to mind) how often was it necessary.
IIRC
> Australian Aborigines seem to have walked about 15km per day in their food
> quest.  Some of this may have involved short sprints after goannas or
> whatever but I've never seen anything about jogging or long runs. I don't
> think it was necessary.
>
> When I worked on an Australian TV show a few years ago, I had to place
film
> crews out in the bush and then go and retrieve them.  The area was quite
> hilly.  I remember the first time I walked up one of the big sand hills I
> was puffed and thought to myself I've got to get fitter.  After about 3
> weeks of walking up and down these hills I was very fit (for walking up
and
> down hills) and no longer puffed.
>
> It seems to me that our bodies respond to the type of exercise we give it.
> Lift weights, get fit for lifting weights.  Jog, get fit to jog.  I don't
> know how much the benefits cross over though.
>
> I'm into bodybuilding now and don't do any jogging etc because I want to
put
> weight on.
> Cachexia (wasting away) seems to be a major problem of elderly people and
> there are a large number of bodybuilders from the 20's, 30.s 40's and 50's
> who are still around and in fantastic shape with plenty of muscle on them,
>
> I will probably start getting into walking soon as that seems to be the
most
> natural and least stressful thing we can do for our bodies and also what I
> would suspect our ancestors did the most of.  Having said that however,  I
> went in the Kosciusko tour cross country ski race last year and the first
> group out were those over 70 and they were in good shape and skied the
14km.
> So maybe there is something to aerobic conditioning especially if it is
> gentle on the joints as X-country skiing is.  Just my 2 cents.
>
> Cheers
>
> Sean
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:27:21 -0800
> From:    Chuck Burns <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Jogging
>
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> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sean wrote:
> > It seems to me that our bodies respond to the type of exercise we
> give it.
> > Lift weights, get fit for lifting weights.  Jog, get fit to jog.  I
> don't
> > know how much the benefits cross over though.
>
> Sean,
> I recently read, for the second time, "Walking" by Casey Meyers. I
> read a bunch on walking and this is by far the best on the subject. He
> talks quite a bit about the specificity principle and says that
> walking is the only thing that he's seen that violates it. He cites
> research done to prove his point. Do you remember the movie "Chariots
> of Fire"? One of the American athletes was Alfie Shrubb who at one
> time held all the world records for distances between 2 and 15 miles.
> His coach was Harry Andrews. To quote from the book (p 159):
> "According to Andrews it did not matter whether your sport was boxing,
> fencing, wrestling, rowing, running, javelin or shot put; walking as a
> primary exercise was applicable to all. He felt it was nature;s first
> exercise and offered "by far the greatest benefit of any form of
> training in its results." Andrews program for his budding runners
> consisted mostly of walking, interspersed with occasional running..
> Even as these athletes progressed, Andrews continued a policy of
> morning and evening walks. Running was limited to the aftrnoon and the
> time spent walking always exceeded the time spent running".
>
> > I'm into bodybuilding now and don't do any jogging etc because I
> want to put
> > weight on.
> > Cachexia (wasting away) seems to be a major problem of elderly
> people and
> > there are a large number of bodybuilders from the 20's, 30.s 40's
> and 50's
> > who are still around and in fantastic shape with plenty of muscle on
> them,
>
> I agree. Dave Draper is a good example.
>
> > I will probably start getting into walking soon as that seems to be
> the most
> > natural and least stressful thing we can do for our bodies and also
> what I
> > would suspect our ancestors did the most of.
>
> It seems obvious to me that walking is our primary gate. Paul Chek has
> a great article on his web site that talks about the benefits of
> walking and especially mentions it's benefits on circulation and the
> operation of the lymph system. I can tell you that from my experience
> the results I have seen from walking far exceed what you would expect
> from the caloric burn.
>
> All the best
>
> Chuck
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:35:47 -0500
> From:    Keith Thomas <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Jogging
>
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> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 07:50 sean mcbride wrote:
>
>
> >IIRC Australian Aborigines seem to have walked
> >about 15km per day in their food quest.
> >Some of this may have involved short sprints
> >after goannas or whatever but I've never
> >seen anything about jogging or long runs.
> >I don't think it was necessary.
>
> Sean, you give me the opportunity to ask a question that has been buzzing
> around in my mind for a couple of years: "What about those tales we learnt
> in [Australian] primary school about young Aborigine men running down a
> kangaroo till it was exhausted over a few days as part of their
> initiation?  Were they just a whitefella myth?"
>
> And, while I'm on the air, my earlier comments against running (more
> specifically, jogging) were made to distinguish:
>
> (a) modern-day aerobic jogging - for the sake of exercise and fitness,
> undertaken solely at the volition of the runner with considerable
> foreknowledge and preparation (so the runner would be sufficiently rested,
> not having a full stomach), with shoes on a paved track and on reasonably
> level ground over a small number of set distances, at a reasonably stable
> pace and over a roughly predetermined distance and with adequate
> hydration, with
>
> (b) Paleolithic running - barefoot, with a definite purpose (catching
> game, escaping an enemy etc.), over virgin terrain, through long grass and
> scrub, up and down hills, boulder hopping etc. - whatever the occasion
> called for and pretty much always at a pace and for a duration over which
> the runner was at the mercy of another person or animal.
>
> We should feel quite comfortable in emulating - as far as possible -
> running of the latter kind in our activity.  Brisk hill walking, with
> occasional fartlek sprints should fit the bill.
>
> Keith
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of EVOLUTIONARY-FITNESS Digest - 10 Dec 2003 to 11 Dec 2003 (#2003-83)
> **************************************************************************

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