Hi Brad,
Sorry about taking so long to get back to you on
this.I believe that you already know my concerns based on your
response below. The key, in my opinion, is accountability. Without
it, sin can have a feeding frenzy. We need checks and balances in a
church because, whether we choose to admit it or not, our churches
are full of sinners. Some are saved by grace, some aren't, but don't
know it and some are outright wolves in sheep's
clothing. Accountability will, hopefully, tease out the truth, if
the truly faithful are patient.
You often refer to a pastor as a shepherd, and the
congregation as sheep. I don't really like this analogy, however,
because a shepherd can never be accountable to sheep, but can only be
responsible for their outcome. By this I mean that a sheep can never
say to his shepherd, "Hey, you made a bad turn back there." Or,
"This grass stinks." Hopefully, the members of a congregation will
let the pastor know how he is doing, good and bad, for everyone's
improvement. A pastor must be faithful to the word and truth, but he
can't insure that the members of the congregation will take hold of
what's good for them for a good outcome. He can only present the
food. What the sheep do with it, truthfully, in their hearts, is
between them and God.
Also, every member of a congregation should be working
toward developing their own ministry. In other words, each sheep
should be growing toward becoming a responsible shepherd of
something. It's kind of like being a parent. You want your children
to grow up and become autonomous adults. You don't want them to
remain dependent children, or followers. In that way, I see debate
also as a healthy thing. We don't want members to be a rubber stamp
of the pastor, but imitators of Christ. Not everyone agrees
theologically. Even on this list, we have differing opinions on many
issues. While I may disagree, I'd rather dialogue than just agree,
or go away because not everybody agrees with me.
Sure, what happened last Sunday stunk. I'm not denying it,
but I'm not overly worried about it either because I truly believe
that, in the end, through all the debate, and twists and turns,
bathed in much prayer, God's will will prevail. It probably won't be
one hundred per cent what I want, or anybody else for that matter,
but if it's what God wants, I choose to be at peace with that.
Kathy
At 06:15 PM 10/22/2007, you wrote:
>Kathy,
>
>I probably can guess your reasons but would be interested in them
>as well the opposed view which you started to elude to when you
>described the governmentally run church there. and actually I've
>witnessed sucha one man show, dictatorship or whatever it might be
>called, a church that really wasn't going anywhere or worse one that
>runs off beaten paths and gets a bit out there doctrinally. It can
>indeed be not good. I've also witnessed a church with a pastor
>with enough latitude to hear from God and act on it, and be
>accountable to a board if things should get questionable, and I
>might add those board members prayed with and for the pastor and it
>wasn't necessarily one person's runaway decision, it also wasn't
>folks on a board being deceptive in presenting cases because there
>was no case to be deceptive of, they simply sought God and it was
>known and they acted upon what God told them in their seeking.
>Sometimes it took a long time to get the answer and there was no
>sense of urgency unless it was an emergency situation. If there was
>a conflict ever I suppose the pastor would have the tie
>breaking decision because he is the shepherd of that flock and if
>the elders, or board were that unhappy, they could remove him from
>pastorship, and he knew that, but yet was afforded room to act on
>what God told him, and behind closed doors I doubt it went without
>confirmation of some kind as well. Trust, lots of trust and
>confidence in both the pastor and the staf. Conversely, try to get a
>room of people to decide on something when there are two or more
>preconceived agendas going into a meeting and it becomes a
>competition of persuasion and where is God then in it? I'm not
>suggesting it is all this way in either case and could well be
>totally off my nut :). But just my observations over the years being
>involved in worship ministry in a few churches and not shooting
>perceptions from the pew.
>
>Brad
>
>
>At 08:45 AM 10/22/2007, you wrote:
>>Brad,P
>>Pastor run ministries are probably the most dangerous and
>>unbiblical style of ministry, in my opinion and the most susceptible to abuse.
>>I'll just leave it at that unless you want to hear my reasons.
>>Kathy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>At 02:27 AM 10/22/2007, you wrote:
>>>How do you think he got all those streets of gold ;) I suppose it
>>>is easy for a group of people to get side tracked in putting
>>>their own agendas to uses of resources when if prayed about, it
>>>might be he says... "Put it in the bank and when you get to X
>>>amount, start a <fill in the blank here> ministry with no debt
>>>attached to it. The trouble is, it is likely you'd get "I felt
>>>God saying to do this" and another saying "I heard God say to do
>>>that ". Governmental churches as such can be tough like Kathy
>>>said. I always assumed that was the job of the pastor, give
>>>direction to the church and if the pastor happened to be out of
>>>God's will, and it was proven or obvious, then he'd be challenged
>>>by the elders. But you have to give him room to hear and act on
>>>what God is telling him in that ministry. Least ways seems as such to me.
>>>
>>>Brad
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>At 04:50 PM 10/21/2007, you wrote:
>>>>I didn't know God was into CD type things and putting money away. What's
>>>>this about storing up treasures in Heaven or is that just about tithing or
>>>>something, haw.
>>>>
>>>>Phil.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Brad D" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 5:41 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: Report on how it went
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Kathy,
>>>> >
>>>> > What did God say to do with it? :)
>>>> >
>>>> > Perhaps just putting it away until focus is off and prayerful
>>>>consideration
>>>> > and a planned out ministry useage might be best to help
>>>> convince folks it
>>>> > is for good and not giving them the impression its burning a
>>>> whole in the
>>>> > collection plate as it were? :) Things might seem less of an opposition
>>>> > later when it isn't so new in the church news.
>>>> >
>>>> > Brad
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > At 11:50 AM 10/21/2007, you wrote:
>>>> > >Hi Guys,
>>>> > >Thanks for praying. It wasn't great, but at least it's over. The two
>>>> > >sides were supposed to present their case, one for investing
>>>> in ministry
>>>> > >and the other for starting a trust fund. Unfortunately, the person in
>>>> > >favor of starting a trust fund went first and, basically,
>>>> misrepresented,
>>>> > >well, let's just say, lied, about those who want to invest in
>>>> > >ministry. The people in favor of ministry never got to really present
>>>> > >their side at all. We were, at least able to convince the congregation
>>>>to
>>>> > >tithe on the money to a worthwhile ministry and just have them park the
>>>> > >rest in a CD to allow for further discussion. Our people are getting
>>>> > >older. They don't have a next generation to pass on the ministry
>>>> > >too. The building is older and isn't up to code. Unfortunately, these
>>>> > >kinds of discussions show the true colors of people that you still need
>>>>to
>>>> > >worship with next Sunday. I'm just praying that the Lord will continue
>>>>to
>>>> > >work in the hearts of our people to get them to step out of
>>>> the boat, out
>>>> > >of the comfort zone and into the adventure where Jesus is.
>>>> > >Kathy
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Brad Dunse
>>>> > http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>> >
>>>> > Check out my site, take a look, have a listen to some sample tunes or
>>>> > contact me if you are interested in a calendar date. Comments are always
>>>> > encouraged and appreciated in the guest book area. Also feel
>>>> free to sign
>>>> > up to the newsletter to receive an occasional performance
>>>> update. Its easy
>>>> > as pie, your address stays with us, and we won't pound you with mail
>>>>either
>>>> > I promise... no worry!
>>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Brad Dunse
>>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>
>>>Check out my site, take a look, have a listen to some sample tunes
>>>or contact me if you are interested in a calendar date. Comments
>>>are always encouraged and appreciated in the guest book area. Also
>>>feel free to sign up to the newsletter to receive an occasional
>>>performance update. Its easy as pie, your address stays with us,
>>>and we won't pound you with mail either I promise... no worry!
>>
>>
>>
>>Brad Dunse
>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>
>>Check out my site, take a look, have a listen to some sample tunes
>>or contact me if you are interested in a calendar date. Comments
>>are always encouraged and appreciated in the guest book area. Also
>>feel free to sign up to the newsletter to receive an occasional
>>performance update. Its easy as pie, your address stays with us,
>>and we won't pound you with mail either I promise... no worry!
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