Kathy,
I pretty much agree with all you said. Accountability is very important. An
just as two far extremes and I am not saying this is the case there so hear
me on that one lol, there ought not be a pastor running wild with no
restraints touting "God told me to do this or that" a group of "wantabe
believers" ought not be in a position to stop a godly man from doing his
charge, but then I suppose God would deal with that I suppose. I do think,
from my experiences in church , that big governmental churches become like
our government too busy with man's purpose and forget to pray about it and
follow God, perhaps that is a slighted view from my own experiences and
even misconceptions of past witnessing of things. I suppose the
shepherd/flock isn't the best analogy for a human in a pastor position
but I haven't found one that works as well overall. I'll refrain from
that one here hahaha, but you make valid metaphoric points. My original
question was more of "What did God say to do with it? And not so much what
this one thinks or that one thinks but rather somehow, find someone who is
hearing from God on what ought be done who is proven to be a
leader/elder/pastor/whatever, perhaps nothing right now, perhaps give it to
Phil :) whatever, but the goal I'd think is seeking the answer to the
question no differently than we do in our personal lives on issues we are
seeking direction... use wisdom we've been given as our part and pray about
specific direction from the Holy Spirit to supercede. There is nothing
wrong with differing views, we are human and subject to mistake and if not
for differing views, we'd all be lead up the garden path wrongly somewhere
along the line huh? ;)
Brad
At 01:15 PM 10/26/2007, you wrote:
>Hi Brad,
> Sorry about taking so long to get back to you on this.I believe
> that you already know my concerns based on your response below. The key,
> in my opinion, is accountability. Without it, sin can have a feeding
> frenzy. We need checks and balances in a church because, whether we
> choose to admit it or not, our churches are full of sinners. Some are
> saved by grace, some aren't, but don't know it and some are outright
> wolves in sheep's clothing. Accountability will, hopefully, tease out
> the truth, if the truly faithful are patient.
> You often refer to a pastor as a shepherd, and the congregation
> as sheep. I don't really like this analogy, however, because a shepherd
> can never be accountable to sheep, but can only be responsible for their
> outcome. By this I mean that a sheep can never say to his shepherd, "Hey,
> you made a bad turn back there." Or, "This grass stinks." Hopefully,
> the members of a congregation will let the pastor know how he is doing,
> good and bad, for everyone's improvement. A pastor must be faithful to
> the word and truth, but he can't insure that the members of the
> congregation will take hold of what's good for them for a good
> outcome. He can only present the food. What the sheep do with it,
> truthfully, in their hearts, is between them and God.
> Also, every member of a congregation should be working toward
> developing their own ministry. In other words, each sheep should be
> growing toward becoming a responsible shepherd of something. It's kind
> of like being a parent. You want your children to grow up and become
> autonomous adults. You don't want them to remain dependent children, or
> followers. In that way, I see debate also as a healthy thing. We don't
> want members to be a rubber stamp of the pastor, but imitators of
> Christ. Not everyone agrees theologically. Even on this list, we have
> differing opinions on many issues. While I may disagree, I'd rather
> dialogue than just agree, or go away because not everybody agrees with me.
> Sure, what happened last Sunday stunk. I'm not denying it, but
> I'm not overly worried about it either because I truly believe that, in
> the end, through all the debate, and twists and turns, bathed in much
> prayer, God's will will prevail. It probably won't be one hundred per
> cent what I want, or anybody else for that matter, but if it's what God
> wants, I choose to be at peace with that.
>Kathy
>
>
>
>
>At 06:15 PM 10/22/2007, you wrote:
>>Kathy,
>>
>>I probably can guess your reasons but would be interested in them as
>>well the opposed view which you started to elude to when you described
>>the governmentally run church there. and actually I've witnessed sucha
>>one man show, dictatorship or whatever it might be called, a church that
>>really wasn't going anywhere or worse one that runs off beaten paths and
>>gets a bit out there doctrinally. It can indeed be not good. I've also
>>witnessed a church with a pastor with enough latitude to hear from God
>>and act on it, and be accountable to a board if things should get
>>questionable, and I might add those board members prayed with and for the
>>pastor and it wasn't necessarily one person's runaway decision, it also
>>wasn't folks on a board being deceptive in presenting cases because there
>>was no case to be deceptive of, they simply sought God and it was known
>>and they acted upon what God told them in their seeking. Sometimes it
>>took a long time to get the answer and there was no sense of urgency
>>unless it was an emergency situation. If there was a conflict ever I
>>suppose the pastor would have the tie breaking decision because he is
>>the shepherd of that flock and if the elders, or board were that unhappy,
>>they could remove him from pastorship, and he knew that, but yet was
>>afforded room to act on what God told him, and behind closed doors I
>>doubt it went without confirmation of some kind as well. Trust, lots of
>>trust and confidence in both the pastor and the staf. Conversely, try to
>>get a room of people to decide on something when there are two or more
>>preconceived agendas going into a meeting and it becomes a competition of
>>persuasion and where is God then in it? I'm not suggesting it is all
>>this way in either case and could well be totally off my nut :). But
>>just my observations over the years being involved in worship
>>ministry in a few churches and not shooting perceptions from the pew.
>>
>>Brad
>>
>>
>>At 08:45 AM 10/22/2007, you wrote:
>>>Brad,P
>>>Pastor run ministries are probably the most dangerous and unbiblical
>>>style of ministry, in my opinion and the most susceptible to abuse.
>>>I'll just leave it at that unless you want to hear my reasons.
>>>Kathy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>At 02:27 AM 10/22/2007, you wrote:
>>>>How do you think he got all those streets of gold ;) I suppose it is
>>>>easy for a group of people to get side tracked in putting their own
>>>>agendas to uses of resources when if prayed about, it might be he
>>>>says... "Put it in the bank and when you get to X amount, start a <fill
>>>>in the blank here> ministry with no debt attached to it. The trouble
>>>>is, it is likely you'd get "I felt God saying to do this" and another
>>>>saying "I heard God say to do that ". Governmental churches as such can
>>>>be tough like Kathy said. I always assumed that was the job of the
>>>>pastor, give direction to the church and if the pastor happened to be
>>>>out of God's will, and it was proven or obvious, then he'd be
>>>>challenged by the elders. But you have to give him room to hear and act
>>>>on what God is telling him in that ministry. Least ways seems as such to me.
>>>>
>>>>Brad
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>At 04:50 PM 10/21/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>I didn't know God was into CD type things and putting money away. What's
>>>>>this about storing up treasures in Heaven or is that just about tithing or
>>>>>something, haw.
>>>>>
>>>>>Phil.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Brad D" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 5:41 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: Report on how it went
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Kathy,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > What did God say to do with it? :)
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Perhaps just putting it away until focus is off and prayerful
>>>>>consideration
>>>>> > and a planned out ministry useage might be best to help convince
>>>>> folks it
>>>>> > is for good and not giving them the impression its burning a whole
>>>>> in the
>>>>> > collection plate as it were? :) Things might seem less of an opposition
>>>>> > later when it isn't so new in the church news.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Brad
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > At 11:50 AM 10/21/2007, you wrote:
>>>>> > >Hi Guys,
>>>>> > >Thanks for praying. It wasn't great, but at least it's over. The two
>>>>> > >sides were supposed to present their case, one for investing in
>>>>> ministry
>>>>> > >and the other for starting a trust fund. Unfortunately, the person in
>>>>> > >favor of starting a trust fund went first and, basically,
>>>>> misrepresented,
>>>>> > >well, let's just say, lied, about those who want to invest in
>>>>> > >ministry. The people in favor of ministry never got to really present
>>>>> > >their side at all. We were, at least able to convince the
>>>>> congregation
>>>>>to
>>>>> > >tithe on the money to a worthwhile ministry and just have them
>>>>> park the
>>>>> > >rest in a CD to allow for further discussion. Our people are
>>>>> getting
>>>>> > >older. They don't have a next generation to pass on the ministry
>>>>> > >too. The building is older and isn't up to code. Unfortunately,
>>>>> these
>>>>> > >kinds of discussions show the true colors of people that you still
>>>>> need
>>>>>to
>>>>> > >worship with next Sunday. I'm just praying that the Lord will
>>>>> continue
>>>>>to
>>>>> > >work in the hearts of our people to get them to step out of the
>>>>> boat, out
>>>>> > >of the comfort zone and into the adventure where Jesus is.
>>>>> > >Kathy
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Brad Dunse
>>>>> > http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Check out my site, take a look, have a listen to some sample tunes or
>>>>> > contact me if you are interested in a calendar date. Comments are
>>>>> always
>>>>> > encouraged and appreciated in the guest book area. Also feel free
>>>>> to sign
>>>>> > up to the newsletter to receive an occasional performance update.
>>>>> Its easy
>>>>> > as pie, your address stays with us, and we won't pound you with mail
>>>>>either
>>>>> > I promise... no worry!
>>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Brad Dunse
>>>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>>
>>>>Check out my site, take a look, have a listen to some sample tunes or
>>>>contact me if you are interested in a calendar date. Comments are
>>>>always encouraged and appreciated in the guest book area. Also feel
>>>>free to sign up to the newsletter to receive an occasional performance
>>>>update. Its easy as pie, your address stays with us, and we won't pound
>>>>you with mail either I promise... no worry!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Brad Dunse
>>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>
>>>Check out my site, take a look, have a listen to some sample tunes or
>>>contact me if you are interested in a calendar date. Comments are always
>>>encouraged and appreciated in the guest book area. Also feel free to
>>>sign up to the newsletter to receive an occasional performance update.
>>>Its easy as pie, your address stays with us, and we won't pound you with
>>>mail either I promise... no worry!
>>
>>
>>
>>Brad Dunse
>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>
>>Check out my site, take a look, have a listen to some sample tunes or
>>contact me if you are interested in a calendar date. Comments are always
>>encouraged and appreciated in the guest book area. Also feel free to sign
>>up to the newsletter to receive an occasional performance update. Its
>>easy as pie, your address stays with us, and we won't pound you with mail
>>either I promise... no worry!
|
