Well Brad,
For now, we have chosen to tithe the money to charity within our
denomination, and park the other $22,500.00 in a six month CD to
allow for more time to dialogue and pray and research ministry
possibilities. This was not a unanimous vote. We had three people
who were pretty angry, descenting votes, but everybody else was on
board with the idea. Sorry that I left out these details.
Admittedly, the pessimist inside of me suspects that some people
voted that way to put off the discussion and some may have just
wanted to get home to lunch, but, I admit that that is my pessimism
speaking. I do believe that a majority wants to see the Lord
glorified and honored. Discering how, is what will take time, prayer
and patience.
Kathy
At 06:19 PM 10/26/2007, you wrote:
>Kathy,
>
>I pretty much agree with all you said. Accountability is very
>important. An just as two far extremes and I am not saying this is
>the case there so hear me on that one lol, there ought not be a
>pastor running wild with no restraints touting "God told me to do
>this or that" a group of "wantabe believers" ought not be in a
>position to stop a godly man from doing his charge, but then I
>suppose God would deal with that I suppose. I do think, from my
>experiences in church , that big governmental churches become like
>our government too busy with man's purpose and forget to pray about
>it and follow God, perhaps that is a slighted view from my own
>experiences and even misconceptions of past witnessing of things. I
>suppose the shepherd/flock isn't the best analogy for a human in a
>pastor position but I haven't found one that works as well overall.
>I'll refrain from that one here hahaha, but you make valid
>metaphoric points. My original question was more of "What did God
>say to do with it? And not so much what this one thinks or that one
>thinks but rather somehow, find someone who is hearing from God on
>what ought be done who is proven to be a
>leader/elder/pastor/whatever, perhaps nothing right now, perhaps
>give it to Phil :) whatever, but the goal I'd think is seeking the
>answer to the question no differently than we do in our personal
>lives on issues we are seeking direction... use wisdom we've been
>given as our part and pray about specific direction from the Holy
>Spirit to supercede. There is nothing wrong with differing views, we
>are human and subject to mistake and if not for differing views,
>we'd all be lead up the garden path wrongly somewhere along the line huh? ;)
>
>
>Brad
>
>
>
>At 01:15 PM 10/26/2007, you wrote:
>>Hi Brad,
>> Sorry about taking so long to get back to you on
>> this.I believe that you already know my concerns based on your
>> response below. The key, in my opinion, is
>> accountability. Without it, sin can have a feeding frenzy. We
>> need checks and balances in a church because, whether we choose to
>> admit it or not, our churches are full of sinners. Some are saved
>> by grace, some aren't, but don't know it and some are outright
>> wolves in sheep's clothing. Accountability will, hopefully, tease
>> out the truth, if the truly faithful are patient.
>> You often refer to a pastor as a shepherd, and the
>> congregation as sheep. I don't really like this analogy, however,
>> because a shepherd can never be accountable to sheep, but can only
>> be responsible for their outcome. By this I mean that a sheep can
>> never say to his shepherd, "Hey, you made a bad turn back
>> there." Or, "This grass stinks." Hopefully, the members of a
>> congregation will let the pastor know how he is doing, good and
>> bad, for everyone's improvement. A pastor must be faithful to the
>> word and truth, but he can't insure that the members of the
>> congregation will take hold of what's good for them for a good
>> outcome. He can only present the food. What the sheep do with
>> it, truthfully, in their hearts, is between them and God.
>> Also, every member of a congregation should be working
>> toward developing their own ministry. In other words, each sheep
>> should be growing toward becoming a responsible shepherd of
>> something. It's kind of like being a parent. You want your
>> children to grow up and become autonomous adults. You don't want
>> them to remain dependent children, or followers. In that way, I
>> see debate also as a healthy thing. We don't want members to be a
>> rubber stamp of the pastor, but imitators of Christ. Not everyone
>> agrees theologically. Even on this list, we have differing
>> opinions on many issues. While I may disagree, I'd rather
>> dialogue than just agree, or go away because not everybody agrees with me.
>> Sure, what happened last Sunday stunk. I'm not denying
>> it, but I'm not overly worried about it either because I truly
>> believe that, in the end, through all the debate, and twists and
>> turns, bathed in much prayer, God's will will prevail. It
>> probably won't be one hundred per cent what I want, or anybody
>> else for that matter, but if it's what God wants, I choose to be
>> at peace with that.
>>Kathy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>At 06:15 PM 10/22/2007, you wrote:
>>>Kathy,
>>>
>>>I probably can guess your reasons but would be interested in them
>>>as well the opposed view which you started to elude to when you
>>>described the governmentally run church there. and actually I've
>>>witnessed sucha one man show, dictatorship or whatever it might be
>>>called, a church that really wasn't going anywhere or worse one
>>>that runs off beaten paths and gets a bit out there doctrinally.
>>>It can indeed be not good. I've also witnessed a church with a
>>>pastor with enough latitude to hear from God and act on it, and be
>>>accountable to a board if things should get questionable, and I
>>>might add those board members prayed with and for the pastor and
>>>it wasn't necessarily one person's runaway decision, it also
>>>wasn't folks on a board being deceptive in presenting cases
>>>because there was no case to be deceptive of, they simply sought
>>>God and it was known and they acted upon what God told them in
>>>their seeking. Sometimes it took a long time to get the answer and
>>>there was no sense of urgency unless it was an emergency
>>>situation. If there was a conflict ever I suppose the pastor would
>>>have the tie breaking decision because he is the shepherd of that
>>>flock and if the elders, or board were that unhappy, they could
>>>remove him from pastorship, and he knew that, but yet was afforded
>>>room to act on what God told him, and behind closed doors I doubt
>>>it went without confirmation of some kind as well. Trust, lots of
>>>trust and confidence in both the pastor and the staf. Conversely,
>>>try to get a room of people to decide on something when there
>>>are two or more preconceived agendas going into a meeting and it
>>>becomes a competition of persuasion and where is God then in it?
>>>I'm not suggesting it is all this way in either case and could
>>>well be totally off my nut :). But just my observations over the
>>>years being involved in worship ministry in a few churches and
>>>not shooting perceptions from the pew.
>>>
>>>Brad
>>>
>>>
>>>At 08:45 AM 10/22/2007, you wrote:
>>>>Brad,P
>>>>Pastor run ministries are probably the most dangerous and
>>>>unbiblical style of ministry, in my opinion and the most susceptible to abuse.
>>>>I'll just leave it at that unless you want to hear my reasons.
>>>>Kathy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>At 02:27 AM 10/22/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>How do you think he got all those streets of gold ;) I suppose
>>>>>it is easy for a group of people to get side tracked in putting
>>>>>their own agendas to uses of resources when if prayed about, it
>>>>>might be he says... "Put it in the bank and when you get to X
>>>>>amount, start a <fill in the blank here> ministry with no debt
>>>>>attached to it. The trouble is, it is likely you'd get "I felt
>>>>>God saying to do this" and another saying "I heard God say to do
>>>>>that ". Governmental churches as such can be tough like Kathy
>>>>>said. I always assumed that was the job of the pastor, give
>>>>>direction to the church and if the pastor happened to be out of
>>>>>God's will, and it was proven or obvious, then he'd be
>>>>>challenged by the elders. But you have to give him room to hear
>>>>>and act on what God is telling him in that ministry. Least ways
>>>>>seems as such to me.
>>>>>
>>>>>Brad
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>At 04:50 PM 10/21/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>>I didn't know God was into CD type things and putting money away. What's
>>>>>>this about storing up treasures in Heaven or is that just about
>>>>>>tithing or
>>>>>>something, haw.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Phil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "Brad D" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 5:41 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: Report on how it went
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Kathy,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > What did God say to do with it? :)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Perhaps just putting it away until focus is off and prayerful
>>>>>>consideration
>>>>>> > and a planned out ministry useage might be best to help
>>>>>> convince folks it
>>>>>> > is for good and not giving them the impression its burning a
>>>>>> whole in the
>>>>>> > collection plate as it were? :) Things might seem less of an
>>>>>> opposition
>>>>>> > later when it isn't so new in the church news.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Brad
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > At 11:50 AM 10/21/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>> > >Hi Guys,
>>>>>> > >Thanks for praying. It wasn't great, but at least it's
>>>>>> over. The two
>>>>>> > >sides were supposed to present their case, one for
>>>>>> investing in ministry
>>>>>> > >and the other for starting a trust fund. Unfortunately,
>>>>>> the person in
>>>>>> > >favor of starting a trust fund went first and, basically,
>>>>>> misrepresented,
>>>>>> > >well, let's just say, lied, about those who want to invest in
>>>>>> > >ministry. The people in favor of ministry never got to
>>>>>> really present
>>>>>> > >their side at all. We were, at least able to convince the
>>>>>> congregation
>>>>>>to
>>>>>> > >tithe on the money to a worthwhile ministry and just have
>>>>>> them park the
>>>>>> > >rest in a CD to allow for further discussion. Our people
>>>>>> are getting
>>>>>> > >older. They don't have a next generation to pass on the ministry
>>>>>> > >too. The building is older and isn't up to
>>>>>> code. Unfortunately, these
>>>>>> > >kinds of discussions show the true colors of people that
>>>>>> you still need
>>>>>>to
>>>>>> > >worship with next Sunday. I'm just praying that the Lord
>>>>>> will continue
>>>>>>to
>>>>>> > >work in the hearts of our people to get them to step out of
>>>>>> the boat, out
>>>>>> > >of the comfort zone and into the adventure where Jesus is.
>>>>>> > >Kathy
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Brad Dunse
>>>>>> > http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Check out my site, take a look, have a listen to some sample tunes or
>>>>>> > contact me if you are interested in a calendar date.
>>>>>> Comments are always
>>>>>> > encouraged and appreciated in the guest book area. Also feel
>>>>>> free to sign
>>>>>> > up to the newsletter to receive an occasional performance
>>>>>> update. Its easy
>>>>>> > as pie, your address stays with us, and we won't pound you with mail
>>>>>>either
>>>>>> > I promise... no worry!
>>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Brad Dunse
>>>>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>>>
>>>>>Check out my site, take a look, have a listen to some sample
>>>>>tunes or contact me if you are interested in a calendar date.
>>>>>Comments are always encouraged and appreciated in the guest book
>>>>>area. Also feel free to sign up to the newsletter to receive an
>>>>>occasional performance update. Its easy as pie, your address
>>>>>stays with us, and we won't pound you with mail either I promise... no worry!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Brad Dunse
>>>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>>
>>>>Check out my site, take a look, have a listen to some sample
>>>>tunes or contact me if you are interested in a calendar date.
>>>>Comments are always encouraged and appreciated in the guest book
>>>>area. Also feel free to sign up to the newsletter to receive an
>>>>occasional performance update. Its easy as pie, your address
>>>>stays with us, and we won't pound you with mail either I promise... no worry!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Brad Dunse
>>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>
>>>Check out my site, take a look, have a listen to some sample tunes
>>>or contact me if you are interested in a calendar date. Comments
>>>are always encouraged and appreciated in the guest book area. Also
>>>feel free to sign up to the newsletter to receive an occasional
>>>performance update. Its easy as pie, your address stays with us,
>>>and we won't pound you with mail either I promise... no worry!
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