In response to your whole post...GET REAL.

I am so sick tired of every god damn "ism" there is. I am sick of hearing
how such and such an "ism" is better than that "ism", this "ism" works and
that "ism" is a failure, this "ism" means freedom that "ism" implies
servitude or oppression.

I must be a fool to enter and promote such a silly war of ideas. I also
don't believe the "rational" creed, which says that waring with ideas
saves or protects humanity from real violence.

GAME OVER!

Harry Veeder


 Sun, 18 May 1997, DDeBar wrote:

> Please excuse me for repeating the string - it's not too long, and it was
> easier to do it this way on this one.
>
> - Don DeBar
>
> ----------
> > From: Harry Veeder <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [CHOMSKY] socialist unions
> > Date: Saturday, May 17, 1997 2:33 PM
> >
> > On Sat, 17 May 1997, Michael Coghlan wrote:
> >
> > > I would have thought that it was abundantly clear - and again this is
> not
> > > from a theoretical standpoint - that socialism has failed in practice
> and
> > > that capitalist societies have shown themselves to be remarkably
> resilient
> > > in providing comparatively better lives for their citizens. People can
> > > debate the advantages of one against the other on a theoretical level,
> but
> > > in practice the answer is clear. Socialism has failed.
>
> What has been demonstrated is that a country or bloc, regardless of it's
> composition or mode of social, economic, or political organization, can be
> successfully frozen out of the world economy and, if the material base of
> the said country or bloc is devastated by invasion and occupation, and
> reconstruction is forced to occur under the threat of atomic, and then
> nuclear, annihilation and in such isolation, a decisive advantage can be
> had.
>
> > What went on in Russia for 70 years wasn't real socialism! It was really
> > state capitalism.
>
> I have heard this claim many times, yet have never really been given the
> definition of "state capitalism"  required to evaluate the veracity or
> accuracy thereof. Please provide one...
>
> > In a competitive world state capitalism will always
> > fail. That is all that has been demonstrated.
>
> ?!!
>
> > Capitalism tends to measure "success" according to external
> > criteria, ie. the failure of OTHERS. Capitalist communities have
> difficulty
> > confronting and admitting internal failure.
> >
> >
> > Socialism, as a philosophy, is just the right of the worker, to
> > have some say in the decision making over his choosen vocation.
>
> If  I am not mistaken, Socialism is an economic system distinguished by
> advanced development and the public, or social, ownership of the means of
> production. "Socialism, as a philosophy...", then, is a philosophy that
> sheds illumination on the subject and/or it's implications for the
> development of humanity.
>
> >  Contrary to popular belief, socialism can be intertwined with capitalism
> without
> > canceling capitalism.
>
> I don't know WHAT you are talking about here...
>
> > That is the challenge facing today's unionism.
>
> I disagree. Look at the history of the trade union movement here and in the
> west, particularly in the UK.
>
> > Harry
>