David Griffin wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/5/2002 2:44:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask]
> writes:
>
> > You're avoiding the issue again.  Zionism is about creating a Jewish
> > state.  You claimed that Jewishness did not imply a religious
> > affiliation, but only a cultural one.  That would mean a person could be
> > a Jew *and* a Catholic, or a person could be a Jew *and* a Muslim.
> > Since a person can not be both a Jew and a Catholic,
>
> I am not avoiding the issue-- you just still don't get it. You say above that
> Zionism is about creating a Jewish state. But Zionism was not created, nor
> does it operate along religious lines, but nationalist lines.

But I'm not saying it doesn't operate "along nationalist lines."  I'm
saying that the "nation" in "nationalist" is meant to be a Jewish
state.  Zionists always refer to a Jewish state.  What do zionists mean
when they say Israel is meant to be a Jewish state?  I'm saying that
whatever Jewish means, that meaning is based on Judaism.  Then a Jewish
state can not be a secular state in the strong sense of separation of
church and state.

> Zionism is
> JEWISH NATIONALISM. Zionism does not create a "Jewish state", but a ZIONIST
> STATE. Thus, you can be a Jew and a Zionist, a Jew and an anti-Zionist, a
> Zionist an a Christian. Some Uncle Tom Palestinians also espouse Zionism, by
> the way.

But you didn't say you can be a Jew and Catholic, a Jew and a Muslim.
It doesn't change the problem when you replace Zionism with Jewish
nationalism.  The intent is still to establish a Jewish state.  I don't
really care whether Israel is a Jewish state or not, except that I
believe that all states should be secular in the strong sense.

> I am not going to explain this again.

You haven't explained it *yet*.

> or both a Jew and a
> >
> > Muslim, if a person is Jewish he is a member of the Jewish religion.
> > Then since zionism intends to create a Jewish state, zionism violates
> > the strong interpretation of principle of separation of church and
> > state, at least in spirit if not explicitly, regardless of whether the
> > constitution of Israel specifies Judaism as the state religion.
>
> If you confine Zionism strictly to the realm of abstract ideas, Zionism can
> be any damn thing you please. But the reality, today, is that Zionism is an
> imperialist mechanism under the aegis of a bourgeois-democratic SECULAR
> state. If you do not believe me, then you are failing to witness what's
> occuring in Israel RIGHT AT THIS SECOND. And if you can't see what's going on
> in Israel right now, you never will.

This thread started because Levitt said he believed you can't be
anti-zionist without being anti-semitic.  My answer was that you can be
anti-zionist without being anti-semitic, if by being anti-zionist you
mean that Israel should be a secular state in the strong sense of
separation of church and state.  If you are anti-zionist on those
grounds, then you must also be anti-zionist in all such cases.  In
particular, you must be anti-christian-zionist in the US, ie the US
should fully implement separation of church and state in the strong
sense.

martin

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