In a message dated 4/7/2002 5:12:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask]
writes:


> Let me again try to focus on the original issue.  I agree that zionism
> is a nationalist movement.  It's goal is to create the state of Israel.
> That goal has been achieved.  Despite achieving that goal, zionists
> continue to pursue the goal, because they believe, rightly or wrongly,
> that the state of Israel is threatened with destruction.  In all cases
> where I have read zionist literature or heard zionists speak, except in
> arguments like this one, the term zionist is always used with the
> meaning expressed by this definition:
>
> http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Zionism/zionism.html
>

Martin gets his definition of zionism from when he "hears Zionists speak,"
then he links us to an Israeli website. That's like getting your definition
of the Enron corporation from an Enron executive!!!!! But, he does not say,
above, that Israel considered itself threatended because it is Jewish, but
admits that it is because "the state" is threatened. Which is more important
to Israel, then, Martin? The state or its religion?


> ie, it is always stated or implied,

.... by Zionists and the U.S.....

> except in arguments like this one,
> that Israel is a Jewish state.

.... by Zionists and the U.S. You tell me who the "exception" is: The other 6
billion people on earth, or Israel and the U.S. Ever checked out any of those
69 U.N. resolutions approved by every other country except the U.S. and
Israel?


> eg, from the definition at the link
> given above: "the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland
> was attained."
>

Of course, you've conveniently edited out the first clause of the sentence,
which reads, "Disagreements led to rifts,"......


> Levitt started this debate by asking and answering the following
> question: "Can anti-Zionism be equated with
> anti-Semitism? It is my experience that almost invariably it does."
>
> I disagreed based on an argument that agrees with yours, namely, that
> Israel should not be a Jewish state.  It should just be a state.  So I
> can be anti-zionist without being anti-semitic if I mean that Israel
> should not be a Jewish state.
>

Ah, okay. Now I see your position clearly. You disagree with the supposed
"Jewish" nature of Israel, but not its statehood. And if you disagreed with
its statehood, you would be "anti-semitic." But Israel carries out its acts
of aggression PRECISELY BECAUSE IT IS A STATE, AND PALESTINE IS NOT!!!! And
it is able to use the U.N. conventions, as the United States does today in
its war with Afghanistan, to justify its actions, i.e. that "each State has
the right to its own self-defense."
You think that Israel carries out its aggression because there are people
there who go to Synagogue, eat tzimmes, have wavy hair and big noses!
Hahaahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!


> I don't care whether you think Israel is a Jewish state or not.  A great
> many people do think Israel is a Jewish state.  And, before you ask what
> Jewish means again, it means: of or relating to the religion Judaism.
> And I don't care whether you agree with that definition or not.  I'm
> sure there are people who use the term as you do, in ways that have no
> connection whatsoever to the religion Judaism, but I'm going to stick my
> neck out and claim that the overwhelming majority of people assume that
> the term Jewish always refers directly or indirectly to Judaism.
>

Do as you like. But these neat, compact, abstract little ideas of yours have
NOTHING to do with what is occurring in Palestine today. ZERO. You, and you
alone, are the one who continues to think that being "Jewish" is an
all-or-nothing proposal. The "majority" of us know the reality is much more
multifarious and that the truth is somewhere in between.

Israel carries out its acts of aggression, including the bunkering-in of
Yasser Arafat, regardless of whether it is "Jewish" or not. Similarly, there
was no inherently "religious" nature to any other act of brutality by the
world powers in the 20th century. You seem to wish to make a direct
connection between religion and violence-- there is no such thing, beyond
false use of religion as a justification. Thus, you continue to support
Israel to the extent that it makes a false justification based on Judaism.

> So let me take a page from Ariel Sharon's book and from George W. Bush's
> book.  They keep saying that Arafat is not doing enough to eliminate
> terror.  I don't know if he is or not.  But I'm quite sure that Ariel
> Sharon isn't doing enough to eliminate the belief that Israel is a
> Jewish state.

Ariel Sharon doesn't give a flying fuck if Martin Smith thinks of Israel as a
"Jewish state" or any other abstract designation. Ariel Sharon carries out
the policies convenient to him and the United States, whether they are hidden
under the false guise of "religion," the real guise of statehood, or anything
else. Don't hold your breath waiting for him to consider your opinion.


>  In fact, the entire Israeli government is not only not
> doing *enough* to eliminate the impression that Israel is a Jewish
> state, they aren't doing anything about it at all.
>

Breathe, Martin! Breathe!


> So don't keep saying Israel isn't a Jewsish state.  When the Israeli
> people declare that Israel is not a Jewish state, and when Israel
> eliminates all privileges of Jews over non-Jews, and when Israel allows
> all the people it expelled to come back as full citizens, then I'll stop
> thinking of Israel as a Jewish state.

It is the ZIONISTS who say that Israel is a "Jewish state." The Zionists, and
the Zionists alone. Oh, and Martin, too!

Right, Martin. When they "start" murdering people without the guise of
religion, what will you think of them then? Your heroes, no doubt.

Zionists, with the support of Britain, the United States, and the rest of
Europe, declared Israel as a secular nation in 1948. Check out the Balfour
declaration.

Martin prefers non-religious apartheid to religious apartheid, and thus,
based on objective fact rather than his own personal subjective ideology,
supports to this day the deeds of the Zionist entity!

Israel uses the STATE power vested in it by the United States to destroy
Palestinian villages-- not the power of "religion" and "God".

Martin thinks that Israel takes its orders from "Rabbi George Bush"!!!!!!

-- David