Issodhos @aol.com wrote:

[...]
>>  Jesus! That is the weakest argument I've heard for a very long time.
>
>   It's not an argument, Bill, simply an observation.  Those not convinced
>that capital punishment would be better relegated to the past will not be
>convinced by power hustlers and agenda driven propagandists making heros
>out of murderers,

Martyrs perhaps, not heroes. But it is only human nature to make martyrs of
those unjustly executed. The earliest scraps of human history record it,
entire philosophies and religious movements are based on it. So is is quite
disingenuous for you to then speak as if this entirely predictable result
were somehow to blame for the continued support for the death penalty.

You are confusing cause and effect I'm afraid.

>or claiming that black skin on death row represents an innocent man,

You are misrepresenting the claim, which is only that the disproportionate
representation of racial minorities is obviously evidence of racial
discrimination in the judicial system. I believe the figures are even more
disproportionate for Aboriginals in the Australian judicial system and
although we don't legally execute people here the deaths in custody problem
achieves almost the same result.

> or falsely claiming that later reversals were the result of a
>determination of innocence.  Use the observation or reject it but don't get
>too worked up over it.

A reversal of a conviction *is* a determination of innocence. I'm not clear
what you are talking about?

>    Americans are like the people of other nations, no smarter and no dumber.

Not entirely. Americans are less subject to pressure from world opinion.
Both militarily and economically the US is almost unique in that it can do
pretty much what it pleases without significant consequences, no matter how
repugnant that might be to the rest of the world. Because there is no
material need for them to consider world opinion, the people and especially
the elite of the US tend to *be* more ignorant and less sophisticated about
many sensitive issues.

This is what is known as absolute power corrupting absolutely. It corrupts
the intellectual capacity first because it renders a high intellectual and
moral standars not only unnecessary, but in some ways a an actual
impediment. Eventually this process of dumbing down of the powerful leads
to the collapse of the empire of course. It isn't the lead in the water,
its the lead in the upper ranks. ;-)

The power to ignore the legitimate sensitivities of others is manifested in
clumsy use of brute force in getting its way and rude contempt for other
peoples. Of course the consequences of this are not immediate, but there
will be consequenses, resentment builds up over decades until eventually
the dam of US brute force and economic power will no longer hold it.

At least that is the lesson of history. I would not want to be a citizen of
the US when that happens.

> And no one said all opposition to capital punishment is politically
>motivated -- just as not all the support for it is politically motivated.  In
>fact, probably only a small but vocal minority on both sides use it as
>political cannon fodder.

To those in political office, all actions are politically motivated.

[...]

>   The mere fact that you and I hold that capital punishment is immoral does
>not mean that others do not view it as a very moral and socially beneficial
>thing to do.  If you wish to convince them otherwise you will first have to
>climb down from your throne of false moral superiority.

I don't see it in terms of moral "superiority" or inferiority. I see it in
terms of moral consistency or inconsistency. In fact of course, moral
inconsistency is simply a lack of morality.

[...]

>    Support for the death penalty has been slipping.  Pat Robertson (an
>influencial televangilist) is now questioning it.  That could be construed as
>progress.:-)

Possibly he might have been told about the first of the Ten Commandments
brought? ;-)

Bill Bartlett
Bracknell Tas.