Trisha,
Thanks for your response. I agree that "arguing" over belief systems is
inherently counterproductive. As a Christian, I am not ashamed of Christ,
nor my belief, but I am very ashamed of the many horrible atrocities
committed through the ages in his name. To state that, "Well, other
cultures have committed atrocities in the name of religion" does nothing but
create a red herring. Guilt is there and should be admitted. One has to
question, however, if these genocidal wars came from the mind of God or
mankind.
I personally feel that the biblical message and contemporary supporting
documentation of historical events is there for all literate people to see
and decide its truth. Too many Christians have taken it upon themselves to
"convert" people when it's their job to present the message and let the
individual decide its validity or falsehood.
Regarding your statement: "I will say from personal experience the only
people who try to convert me are the Christians." Yes, that's most likely
true as Christianity is the only major world religion where conversion of
others is part and parcel of its message. Matthew 28:19-20 reads,
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name
of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to
obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to
the very end of the age." So there's no sugar-coating that mandate that
Christians are indeed called to deliver this message. Where we get into
trouble is when we press the issue. Christ himself said in Matthew 10:13-15
to leave people alone if they are unreceptive to the message. The apostle
Peter, in I Peter 3:1, tells the Christian that it is example, not
preaching, that will win people's hearts.
I also agree that Christianity has been confused in its purpose and
direction over the last 2000 years. The writers of the canonical bible--Old
Testament and New--predicted this, so it should come as no great surprise.
It also should come as no surprise that Christians are today facing
derision, and in some cases true persecution, as never before. I actually
welcome this as it means that Christianity is again "stirring the pot". No
other belief forces you to make a decision like Christianity--you either
accept or reject it as Truth.
You said, "I don't share alot of the stuff I know because it is not my place
to rock anyone's faith." Share away! If what you share is truth, then it
will be self-evident. If what you say is not truth, that will be evidenced
as well.
I think the main sticking point here is that so-called "Christianity" has
been bastardized for 2000 years and many "Christians" know so little about
what their bible has to say about how to conduct one's life. They don't
read it for themselves, but accept others' teachings without question.
Paul's second letter to Timothy (II Tim. 2:15) lets Timothy know that he
himself is responsible for knowing what God has to say--not some guy in a
robe at the front of a church building.
As for your sentiments about the season, it's a shame that the season makes
a difference in anyone's life anyway. As far as Christianity is concerned,
it wasn't until mankind "bastardized" the message that holidays were an
issue at all. The apostle Paul in his letters to the churches at Colossus
(ch 2) and Rome (ch 14) makes it clear that one day or season was no greater
than any other.
So christianity is indeed diasporic after about 70 AD. After 300 AD it is
almost unrecognizable from the first century church. The amazing thing is
that the Jewish prophet Daniel predicted this would happen some 500 years
before Christ was ever born in type/event prophecy!
Stepping off soapbox,
-Kyle
-----Original Message-----
From: Trisha Cummings [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 4:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Especial for Kyle
Hi Kyle,
I am having a pit stop at home.
I am fairly well versed in human behavior and to be honest I don't
see anymore logic in arguing over belief systems than I do over Ford vs
Chevy - Coke vs Pepsi. They are all personal perferences. I do know that
Christians are feeling threatened right now but the climate has become so
that other religions are becoming visible. I guess this is a threat to some
people. People seem to think if they can show you their logic you will
change your mind. Funny, they don't change theirs if they stop to listen to
you. The unforunate effect of to much preaching at people is exactly what
you said - it drives them away. And some go so far as to become Atheists. In
all fairness - we need to be able to listen to what someone else has to say,
and consider it. You want rights for the disabled. If you want fairness for
one group - you should want it for all. There are disabled Pagans. In fact
there was a write up from our Blessed Be and Meet me in DC gathering -
featuring just that - a Pagan Female in a wheelchair. I think since all
humans are born the same way - end the same way - with death - what happens
afterwards is undoubtly the same also. The unvarnished truth is we don't
know what happens afterwards and each civilization has its own version. The
only people who have an inkling are those of us who are Near Death
Experiencers and we aren't running around sharing and trying to convert
people.
I will say from personal experience the only people who try to convert me
are the Christians. I work with a whole slew of people from Afganistan who
are Muslim - and we exchange beliefs - but they have never treid to convert
me. However the one Christian lady at work - works real hard at it. I have
shared beliefs with Hindu's - and been thanked for the information. I have
learned alot.
I have extensive knowledge on Christianity - despite the fact most
people thoughts to the contrary. Paganism is about learning - not just what
is taught by the elders as acceptable. I don't share alot of the stuff I
know because it is not my place to rock anyone's faith. I am respectful of
others beliefs. Betty and I discuss stuff - however I do edit out stuff
frequently. I have read old manscripts and know ancient Christian History.
Lets face it you guys don't even agree on what to believe becasue there are
ummpteen versions of Christian beliefs. There is one belief that is right
for you but no one right belief. And that unforunately is where some
Christians have a problem. This does not seem to be a problem among Pagans,
or some of the other religions and quite frankly even a whole contingency of
Christians don't have a problem with it!!.
I seek only to educate - I don't proletize - I am not looking to
make anyone Pagan - I didn't even do this with my child - it was her choice
to be a Pagan and a Witch. But you guys know - what Bob did was waving a red
flag in my face. I will say something - It says on my web site I support
Freedom of Religion, The ADA and the Rights of Individuals.
I also know much of what is wrong is simply human nature. We tend
to want to be right and are many times willing to defend it to the death no
matter how silly. We have whole wars over sillyness. We are willing to
defend ourselves being right even after its been proven we are wrong. We
have made being wrong or making a mistake a horrid thing instead of a normal
thing. If you are wrong you are bad. Its okay to be wrong, and its a major
leap in maturity to be able to admit to being wrong. Alot of human problems
are based on the inability of someone just to say - I am wrong or I will
respect you believe differently and let it go. Now, it seems to me there is
more fighting over religion at Christmas than other other time. It seems to
crop up on every list. For the season that is suppose to personify Peace
and Love isn't this strange.
Blessed Be
Trisha
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