Larry,

This fits in with my work-in-progress: Contractors and Residential 
Clients: Tips on How to Avoid Problems

http://pcls-tips.blogspot.com/2011/09/introduction.html

My interest in the information came from that we had a client who hired 
a plumber to fix a leak in an upstairs bathroom and after one day of one 
person on site, not the "I" person but actually someone that worked for 
a totally different company, our client got hit with a $3,500 invoice 
and told that they had agreed to it. What they had agreed to is the 
plumber guy had said that he needed to go get some parts and that he 
would be back to which the client amiably said, "Not a problem." The 
plumber also left a large gaping hole in the plaster ceiling of the 
living room on the lower floor. I think the part that cost so much to go 
and get was a 4" neoprene pipe gasket. That, plus my talking for an hour 
to an audience of homeowners for a window workshop hosted by 
Preservation Delaware, kind of got me worked up about how these negative 
things happen in residential work.

I claim that we do not do residential work though we seem to keep doing 
it. I have had some really horrific experiences and mostly they come 
about because the client has expectations that they don't express, that 
they do not know how to communicate, in many cases are not even aware 
that they may need to communicate. For example, if you hire a contractor 
because you want your house fixed up before the social party that you 
are going to hold ten days from now it really makes sense to let the 
contractor know that before they write up a work proposal and start the 
work. Not that you suddenly get bent because the contractor is not going 
fast enough for what you never told them that you wanted.

I've also worked for residential clients that I thought were just plain 
psychotic, no other way to put it, and at a certain point in the project 
the problem is how to get away from them as quickly as possible. One 
needs to make a decision to be professionally unprofessional. I don't 
think this is the case in this window scenario, what I think is that the 
"I" guy is doing what he does for everyone on all of his projects and 
that does not include him getting closer to his clients... which, if it 
is a one day job, why invest all that time and energy to get to know the 
residential client? This goes to the idea to build healthy relationships 
first, do business after.

What I also find is that residential clients don't always know what they 
are asking for. Recently a client asked how large we were and I said, 
two people. They then, after we had a signed contract, asked if they 
could have something done that exponentially increased the difficulty 
and the scope of the work and would require a crew of six and about 
three times the cost. Bad enough that we got thrown this curve, but they 
don't understand either that it took time, energy, cost, and attention 
to communicate to them just what it was that they were asking for. Why 
should all that communication work be done for free?

Likely the "I" man looked at the window, saw how they could put in 
process a chain of events, including the 'guy' for them to assign to the 
work, the guy who more than likely does the work better than the 'I' 
man, and once it was set up went about doing what the "I" man is better 
at. And the "I" man probably figured that they needed to keep the cost 
low in order to compete, which low cost generally results in reduced 
management activity... like paying attention to the weather over one 
window, or spending as little time as possible to tell the carpenter guy 
what needs to be done. And I know of a whole lot of small outfits where 
the crew very much wants the "I" man to visit then leave as quickly as 
possible as micro-management mucks up the work even worse. It could also 
be that the guy who actually works on the window figures they are 
getting paid for the day by the "I" guy that is exploiting them and they 
don't care what happens to the window, as in the caulking, or the A/C 
cost, or the concerns of the client, and they may not have said diddly 
to the "I" guy about where they left off with the work. The "I" guy, not 
knowing what is going on, probably sent the carpenter guy to another 
location, possibly where a client was putting on more pressure.

And yes, there are a whole lot of small practitioners that think and say 
"I" all the time. My own tendency is to say WE, to insist that people 
understand that it is not about ME, that WE will do this or that, or 
that I will introduce the carpenter guy to the client, one-on-one and 
explain that I am asking this carpenter guy to do the actual work 
because they will do it a whole lot better than I will do it -- because 
frankly I don't have the patience of actually doing the work or I really 
don't care enough (the homeowner's house may be precious to them but to 
me it is just one more house) but I know that this carpenter guy will 
care. Then again, we are not exactly cheap, we charge for our service, 
we charge for therapy sessions. Saying WE confuses residential clients 
often enough that they won't engage to hire. So some guys get used to 
saying "I" will do this and that. A problem here is that in general the 
client thinks that all they want is their window fixed and not that they 
themselves will need to invest the time to figure out what it is that is 
going on in the transaction before they agree to have the work done. 
Work is done by people. Build the relationship then worry about the window.

Then, there are predatory contractors who are really well practiced at 
what they do. They exist and prosper for a whole slew of reasons.

Once I had a really good friend that I hired to do window work for a 
small residential project, he needed work, he needed the work more than 
I needed the small project, but when asked to do a project I have always 
had a problem to say NO, and I was in a totally stressed out situation 
as it was and a bit cocky about the whole thing, which had a lot to do 
with my coping in hell. I was screwed up. I was a part of a larger 
company and everyone knew that I was not the guy that was going to do 
the work. Everyone knew each other just fine. I assigned a young fellow, 
an engineering student, to manage the 'little' project that should have 
been a smooth no-brainer. As it was my friend had a total breakdown, 
moved out of area, kept showing up at odd times to do the project, and 
another project beside, and did a major job on bashing my reputation 
with the local landmarks conservancy because he not only did not caulk 
around the windows, there were large gaps of 1-2" around the windows and 
it was winter and the wife was home with the baby while the musician 
husband was out on tour. Snow blowing into their house and I did not 
know enough about window work to go over there and fix it myself, even 
though my partners would do everything they could to keep me away from 
putting on a tool belt. Suddenly I was loaded on one hand with 
multi-million dollar projects and having to stop and go straighten out 
the FUBAR screw up my friend had put us in to. It put the two of us in a 
bad way. It put me in a bad way with my business partners. My friend and 
I did not talk for like 10 years. Things have fixed up since and I think 
we both realize that our friendship is more valuable to each of us than 
the shit that happens.

After 40 some years of doing residential work, of doing any work, what I 
know is that what we think is going on is probably not what is going on 
at all. It is fine to think all sorts of things but sometimes the best 
thing to do is forget about the little stuff and move on.

][<en


On 6/22/2012 12:47 PM, Lawrence Kestenbaum wrote:
> Copied to BP by permission -- a message thread about wooden window repair.
>
> As mentioned below, Jojo (the homeowner) says she's interested in what
> y'all might have to say.
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> (1) From Jojo, Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:44 pm
>
> So, this morning a repairman was supposed to stop by and do some work
> on my house.
>
> I connected with this guy when he came by my house with a flyer. He
> was doing something in the neighborhood, and it's common practice to
> hit other people on the block for work... Anyway, I'd never used him,
> but I've heard good things about him. I have some stuff that needs to
> be done, so I thought I'd give it a try.
>
> I asked him to give me an estimate on one small job. While we're
> talking, he tells me how he has been a carpenter for 15 years, he can
> give me recommendations, I can look at a photos of his work on his
> website, he has lots of experience with this type of work...yada,
> yada, yada....everything was all about him. Never once mentioned a
> crew or a company...
>
> During my emails with him, it was the same thing. Everything he said
> was "I". I will do this. I will do that.
>
> When he shows up this morning, another man is with him, introduced as
> his "helper". Okay...no problem with that.
>
> Well...a little ways into the job, the guy I hired leaves. The helper stays.
>
> The helper has been working by himself all day. The guy I hired has
> not come back, hasn't called. He's gone.
>
> Not that the helper isn't doing a good job. He's friendly. He knows
> what he's doing. I'm not going to be unhappy with the work.
>
> but....I feel a little annoyed. This isn't what he lead me to believe
> would happen. If he's said to me, "I have a crew. I'm sending Joe.
> He's a great carpenter," I wouldn't feel this way.
>
> Oh...and he also told me he'd be done in 6-7 hours. We are now working
> on 10 hours. I think that has something to do with the fact that HE'S
> NOT HERE WORKING.
>
> ...I don't think I want to use him again. Am I being unreasonable?
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> (2) From Quincy, Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:33 pm
>
> Find out as many of the facts first before reaching any conclusion. He
> could have run up on a family situation or illness or something.
>
> Barring all that...it's not uncommon for a handyman/builder to use the
> pronoun "I" when describing his crew's work...especially if he runs
> the crew. It is a bit "misleading" perhaps, but not at all uncommon in
> that trade...especially for a guy trying to establish contacts in the
> way you describe.
>
> Good luck...I hope the guy that's actually swinging the hammer (so to
> speak), continues his good work.
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> (3) From Kristin, Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:27 am
>
> I would be annoyed. I would also recommend following Quincy's advice.
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> (4) From Everett, Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:20 am
>
> I would also find out what is going on, but I would not be too
> annoyed. The same thing happened to me. I hired a contractor to do a
> job in my bathroom. When I spoke with him, he always said "I will..."
> "I..." "I....".
>
> On the day of the job, he showed up with two guys and spent only the
> first hour or so at my house. His assistants stayed and finished the
> job. He came in again at the end for about half an hour and stayed to
> check the final product.
>
> My father in law is an architect and he explained that the practice is
> not uncommon. Especially for contractors that are just starting out,
> need to build a costumer base, or advertise their work.
>
> Later I found out that the guy I talked to drove to stores like The
> Home Depot to check prices, distribute flyers, and talk to people. I
> don't see a problem with that as long as the job is done right and you
> are satisfied with it. Just make sure no funny business is going on.
>
> Best wishes!
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> (5) From Jojo, Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:58 pm
>
> It's getting worse.
>
> Last night, no phone call or contact from the guy. The helper quit
> when it got dark outside. He didn't finish. They are repairing some
> old wood-framed windows. He got the repairs done and the glass in. He
> didn't get the caulking or painting done.
>
> Today, it rains. Hard. No caulking in the windows. No paint on the frames.
> I'm upset that he told me they'd be finished by 5pm yesterday.
> Otherwise, I'd have known to check the weather for a few days out. Not
> to mention the fact that a good portion of my A/C is cooling the yard
> at this point.
>
> And of course, no phone calls about this at all. Nothing about why
> they didn't finish on time or when they plan to finish. No info about
> how the weather will affect it. Nothing.
>
> ...this isn't going well.
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> (6) From Quincy,  Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:12 pm
>
> Often the carpenter will do the carpentry work and the painter will
> caulk and paint. However, on a small crew like you describe, usually
> the carpenter is a jack-of-all-trades and will do it all.
>
> He probably didn't finish in time to properly caulk/paint (especially
> if darkness was settling in). But to leave the windows unprotected is
> just lazy and wrong (IMHO)...especially if it was going to rain.
>
> I'd be interested to hear what the crew "I" guy says when you finally
> get in touch with him. I don't like this so far...
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> (7) From Jojo, Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:38 pm
>
> He just called. He wanted to talk about paint color. Told him I don't
> much care, as long as it blends.
>
> He didn't even bring up the rain. I had to. He didn't seem concerned
> about it. He said, "If the sun's out tomorrow, it should be dry by
> noon."
>
> I'm not happy about that at all. I'm not all that worried about the
> surface wood. If it's not dry, the paint won't stick. What I'm worried
> about is the places where there's no caulk, because that means the
> water is all down in the cracks.
>
> (...did I mention that the reason all these repairs need to be done is
> because the previous owner didn't keep the windows caulked, and water
> got in and rotted the frames?)
>
> I suggested he at least wait a few more days. He wasn't happy with
> that. He wants to do it Friday at the latest.
>
> ...and I agree about leaving the windows unprotected. They should've
> at least put plastic or something up.
>
> My bad, for not checking the weather forecast. Never even crossed my
> mind because it was "supposed" to be a one-day job. Of course, if I
> had checked the weather last night, I would've been out there at
> midnight putting up plastic and cursing the carpenter.
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> (8) From Quincy,  Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:58 pm
>
> Be sure he uses a backer rod and sealant, especially if the gaps to be
> caulked (sealed) are fairly large. Figuring if you've had problems
> before based on the previous home owners lack of maintenance, then you
> may have some larger type gaps.
>
> Also...if the wood is weathered from age, he may need to prime it
> before painted to ensure a solid bond between the wood and the paint.
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> (9) From Everett, Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:21 pm
>
> Ok, I take back what I said. What they did was so unprofessional, if
> they were falling behind, they should have told you. Furthermore, it
> is unacceptable that they left you window open to the elements.
>
> If something was ruined and/or got dirty, I would demand that they
> clean it and fix it. Did you sign a contract? I would be furious and I
> am also curious what his excuse will be.
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> (10) From Jojo, Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:48 pm
>
> To be fair, the windows do all have glass. They aren't wide open. But
> the glass is just sitting in the frame. There's no caulking/sealant at
> all. So there's a fairly decent draft happening. Which doesn't make
> for happy thoughts when it comes time to pay the A/C bill during the
> summer in Texas.
>
> I checked the weather forecast, too. Last night there was only a 20%
> chance of rain predicted for today. So the heavy rain we got today
> wasn't exactly a sure thing at the time the helper quit last night.
>
> On the other hand, they were predicting the rain by 8am this morning.
> The rain didn't arrive until noon. He had plenty of time to come over
> and either finish the job or cover the windows, even if it meant
> rescheduling something else...and especially since he was already past
> his finish deadline.
>
> Again, partly my fault for not checking the weather, either. I did
> check everything when I got home from work. No major water inside, but
> the frames were pretty wet.
>
> Still, it is his professionalism on the line here. I don't like his
> attitude about it all. I'm trying to be calm about it because I know
> I'll have to pay him anyway, and I want him to finish caulking and
> painting. I don't want to be doing it myself this weekend. But I don't
> think he'll be doing any more work for me.
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> (11) From Lawrence Kestenbaum, Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:48 am
>
> May I share your story with an email list of folks who work on
> historic buildings -- including window repair?
>
> They may have interesting things to say.
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> (12) From Frederica, Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:34 am
>
> Ya, when I first read this, I thought, well ... maybe he meant "I" as
> in "my" business. It not unusual for a small business contractor to
> leave a helper behind to do common jobs. So, while it would have made
> me more aware to ask specifics in the future "Are YOU going to be
> doing the work, or will someone else be doing it?" ... besides
> annoyed, I wouldn't have thought much of it.
>
> Then you posted the follow up.
>
> Contractor told you work would be done by 5pm. He indicated a one day
> and done job. Checking the weather and covering the windows became HIS
> responsibility when the job WASN'T finished, not yours.
>
> And I would abslolutely NOT use him again, or even give him a decent
> review to anyone who asks.
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> (13) From Jojo, Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:38 pm
>
> I don't mind you sharing this at all. I'd be interested in what they
> have to say. I have no experience with this kind of thing. Only what
> I've been told.
>
> Just for reference -- This house is a 60s split-level. The windows in
> question are large bay windows, I think custom built by a factory
> somewhere, with 4x9 grids of glass panes, each pane about 2ft x 2ft.
>
>
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>
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