Ilya wrote:
>Amadeus Schmidt wrote: (citing...)
>> When we eat a whole grain, we are getting exactly the amount of
>> micronutrients needed to digest the amount of carbohydrates in
>>that grain--no more and no less. ..
Ilya:
>This is too simplistic and there is at least one major flaw with it.
>That is that the grains own metabolism is the same as ours and the
>nutrients  that are essential to it are also essential to us ...

This view- the micronutrients to break down the carbohydrates
applies only to *one* aspect of a plant, compared to a human.
This is the major energy gaining pathway: the Krebs cycle.
You can find in many physiology books that this pathway of
energy gaining is the same Krebs Cycle in humans
as it obviously is in the grain.
The Krebs Cycle has a very defined chain of reactions, which are
necessary to get energy and co2 and water out of carbs
(Dr.Stoll mentiones 48 enzymes necessary).
Try an internet search on Krebs Cycle -- i found animated GIFs of it.
I don't think that there are varieties of it, which function
with a different set of enzymes.

>.... that are essential to it are also essential to us (here
>essential meaning something that must come from the outside).
> ... There are many very simple organisms
>that are able to manufacture many nutrients as they need them (while
>our bodies can't make the same nutrient - e.g. yeast can make almost
>everything it needs out of carbs, a few proteins and minerals).
I think many or most of this 48 enzymes can be made by the human
organism itself. (shure, yeast can make all).
At least one of all these 48 has been scientifically found to
be absolute essential - it *must* come from outside.
This is thiamin (vitamin b1).
Well, thiamin is *known* to be essential, the other 47 enzymes
probably not, but it may be hard or an additional effort for the
body to build them up instead of assimilating them from food.

I see it this way:
If every food available through all the eons of millions of years
of eating had thiamin readily included (for its own use) -
why should then the human organism build it up?
This shureness - thiamin was accompanied with *every* carbo-food item
must have been so well established, that even the thiamin
storage inside humans only lasts for a few weeks.

Now, milling cereal grains, cultivation of fruits, and cooking
for the *first* time in all history created foods with
come short in thiamin.
No wonder that we haven't a means to cope with thiamin lacks.
It is and remains essential, a vitamin.

The need of aquiring energy is very essential to sustain life
functions.
For carbohydrate energy there's even a own sense build into
our tongue (one of the 4 tongue senses is sweet).
It seems that our bodie's reaction on a energy lack is simply
to start craving for something sweet.
May the energy shortage be caused by carbs missing or
missing burning vitamins like thiamin.
This was successful in all times because all food items *had* the
thiamin. Now,for the first time there is food with too little
thiamin the same method will drive us into
a over-supply of carbohydrate energy.
For the very first time obese and diabetic mammals.

There might be some more ingredients missing in modern food items
which generate a similar effect (all short vitamins).
Knowing the universal Krebs cycle and thiamin beeing necessary to it
shows us one obvious shortcomeing by "refined" foods.
Somehow undoubtable, IMO.
I'd be looking forward to any arguments
about the Krebs Cycle and its renzymes in general and other
energy pathways if applicable, just to see how waterproof it is.

regards
Amadeus