It isn't just the animals.  How many of your friends have died from
pancreatic cancer?  The number is three for me and all three were in
different age groups.  All three of them were into grains/legumes and all
three loved pastry.  One of them had a weight problem and the other two were
within their range.  I realize this is not scientific, but three is a big
number for a group of friends. It wasn't difficult for me to change my WOE.
Oliva

-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Balzer <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [P-F] Low carb vs High carb? and Insulin resistance


>The down-regulation is a consequence of chronic hyperstimulation of the
>insulin receptors. I haven't read a good explanation for it in the
>literature, but you could try to find an medical endocrinology newsgroup if
>you want to explore the mechanism further. I just thought it's due to
making
>the body do something it's not designed to do, although since reading
>Liener's text  (or the first few chapters anyhow), I can see that plant
food
>toxins are mainly in Neolithic foods, and this could have something to do
>with it, but that's just a hypothesis. Liener goes into great detail about
>animal feeding with plants- and pancreatic hypertrophy is one of the common
>consequences in animals fed, say, uncooked soya beans. I'm sorry I can't go
>into more detail, it's such a heavy book that I don't have time to go
>through it again. It's not written from the paleo view, it's written from
an
>Agricultural science view (ie he published this to help to feed the world
on
>grains). Todd, get your librarian to get it in, you'll find chapters 1,2
and
>3 helpful. Pancreatic toxicity seems quite common with these toxins. It's
>funny reading it from a paleo view as you eventually say- hey, this is all
>the stuff I'M NOT EATING.
>
>Now, if down-regulation didn't occur, there would be no diabetes. Our
>pancreases can keep on secreting the amount of insulin a 25 year old slob
>(junk food addict) needs forever. The problem is that the amount needed
>keeps on increasing, and eventually it can't go any further, and later
gives
>up.
>
>You're quite right about exercise helping things- regular exercise is said
>to be the key to getting on top of maturity onset diabetes.
>
>I can't recall any direct effect of these plant toxins on insulin
receptors.
>
>Ben Balzer
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Todd Moody <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Monday, 6 September 1999 7:09 AM
>Subject: Re: [P-F] Low carb vs High carb? and Insulin resistance
>
>
>> On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Ben Balzer wrote:
>>
>> > It's actually said to be a vicious circle:
>> > High carbohydrate intake/ lack of exercise causes high insulin levels
>which
>> > eventually leads to "down-regulation" of insulin receptors, or insulin
>> > resistance.
>>
>> This is the part that I don't quite understand.  I see that the
>> dietary carbohydrates (and protein, for that matter) cause the
>> blood sugar to rise, which triggers the release of insulin to
>> push it back down, by storing the sugars.  I see that this should
>> cause a *transient* rise in insulin levels, but I don't see why
>> this in itself should cause down-regulation of insulin receptors.
>>
>> I also see that exercise should help to normalize blood sugars by
>> increasing them demand for them.
>>
>> > The blood sugars then go up. The body then needs to use secrete
>> > more insulin to push the sugar down. Then there is more
down-regulation,
>ie
>> > more resistance.
>>
>> It's the down-regulation of the receptors that I don't
>> understand.  I can see how the saturated fats might contribute to
>> this, by changing the cell membrane characteristics, but I don't
>> quite see how the insulin itself would do it.
>>
>> > You can see that hyperinsulinaemia is an early stage in the diabetic
>> > spectrum.
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> > There is another explanation from the study of paleo diet and
food-plant
>> > toxins (which primarily exist in grains):
>> > Protease inhibitors and lectins seem to have a specific adverse effect
>on
>> > the pancreas and pancreatic enzymes (as well as some effects on other
>organs
>> > and enzymes). The pancreas is the master controller of most of the
>endocrine
>> > system, particularly that relating to food and metabolism. One could
>> > hypothesise that the toxic proteins of the Neolithic diet are the main
>cause
>> > of the above vicious circle, more so than the high levels of
>carbohydrate in
>> > Neolithic food. One would also wonder if the Neolithic toxins actually
>kill
>> > off the insulin producing cells in the pancreas.
>>
>> I don't quite see this, but I am interested to learn more about
>> how the protease inhibitors and lectins affect pancreatic
>> function.  To be responsible for insulin resistance they would
>> also have to contribute to the down-regulation of the insulin
>> receptors.  Is there evidence that this is in fact the case?
>>
>> > If that were so, the  Paleolithic diet would be very effective for
>diabetics
>> > (but dangerous if they're on medication as their blood sugars might
>crash).
>> > In Neanderthin, Ray indicates that paleodiet has cured his diabetes and
>> > listmembers have indicated that they have had good results, ie their
>> > experience supports these ideas. Ray also believes that Neolithic
toxins
>> > cause obesity, and I completely agree.
>>
>> Does Ray claim that his diabetes has been cured in the sense that
>> he now has normal pancreatic function?  I haven't seen him claim
>> this, but I certainly may have missed it.
>>
>> As for neolithic toxins being the cause of obesity, I regard it
>> as an interesting hypothesis but I can't say that I am aware of
>> much evidence to support it.  If there is specific support for
>> the claims that lectins, etc. down-regulate insulin receptors,
>> that would be a reasonably strong kind of support.  This is why I
>> am interested in learning more about this.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Todd Moody
>> [log in to unmask]