Hi Jean-Louis,

> Hi Alan,
>
> [Sorry for my delayed response, but I have been away for one week (in
> Münster, Germany). BTW, I visited two large libraries, but couldn't
> find Franz Konz's book.

It is only available from:

Bund fuer Gesundheit e.V.
Talsstr. 36
D-52525 Heinsberg

eMail: [log in to unmask]

> I am not saying I would necessarily have
> bought it, since it's in German (and quite thick), but if it had turned
> out to be really interesting, I would have made the effort to read at
> least a few chapters.]
>
Franz is currently looking for someone to produce a less thicker,
English version. It would be a mammoth task, but he has the money.

> Now, if I may summarize what has been said about calcium and dairy:
>
> (Preliminary note: all the statements below are relevant for ordinary
> --supermarket quality--foods. Further study is needed in order to
> generalize to dairy from grass-fed, organically-raised animals and
> plants grown on highly mineralized soils.)
>
As far as calcium is concerned..there is no difference.

>  -The Ca/P ratio in milk is acceptable, but the ratio Ca/Mg is too
> high (typically 20:1). Therefore, it is necessary to ensure adequate
> magnesium intake in order to utilize dairy calcium efficiently.
>
Now you are doing your homework! And how many people who are told
to drink milk as a calcium source are warned that doing this will
severely deplete the magnesium in their body (bones)?

>  -On the other hand, few green vegetables constitute good sources of
> calcium, since many (e.g. spinach) contain oxalic acid, which is known
> to be a calcium inhibitor. Those who don't rarely have adequate ratios
> Ca/P and Ca/Mg.
>
This is certainly true of many domestic veggies (and don't forget
the phosphorus as well). In fact I have always warned against eating
the same veggies that you used to eat cooked raw (with the exception
of carrots..and then only together with veggie oil). I could perhaps
agree to eating raw cabbage as sauerkraut but that is about as far
as it goes. Anyone who tries such a regime is doomed to failure.

>  -According to Alan, adults don't produce enough rennin, and rennin is
> necessary to break a bond between calcium and casein. On the other
> hand, I have read (if my understanding is correct) that the digestion
> of dairy by pepsin and trypsin produces CPP, and the bond Ca-CPP is
> weak enough, so that calcium can be absorbed... If someone could
> clarify the relation between calcium paracaseinate and CPP, it would
> be helpful.
>
So you have read somewhere of another method. How come the cheese
industry still insists on rennin from the stomachs of calves (nowadays
a chemical copy of the same)? Cows produce enough pepsin and trypsin
so why don't they use that?

>  -Anyway, the rennin issue is irrelevant in pre-digested forms of milk
> like yoghurt or cheese (in young animals, the rennin that is secreted
> in their stomachs coagulates milk, which then acquires a youghurt-like
> consistency).
>
If cheese did not contain saturated fat (or was not processed to
lower this fat level) and came from untreated, hand-milked
cows eating organically grown food I would certainly agree that
this would be a better calcium source than milk. The high
casein level (300 times more than human milk) would make me
favour cheese from an animal more like the size of a human
though (e.g. a sheep or a goat). The same applies to yoghurt.

argument applies to yoghurt>  -Experiments (by radioisotope-labeling techniques)
show that 25% of the
> calcium in milk is absorbed. Alan claims without proof that
> researchers have selected subjects among the few who produce rennin.
>
Yes..and you are claiming that rennin is not needed at all. So you
must also be claiming that most Africans (indigenous black
Africans), who certainly produce enough trypsin and pepsin (they
couldn't survive otherwise) have no problem with milk at all. The
same goews for the majority of people in the far eastern
countries.

>  -In some countries, people don't drink milk, but have get calcium
> from sources that are unsuitable for raw-fooders, like tofu or fish
> bones.
>
Tofu is processed rubbish..and who eats fish bones?..except perhaps
in a tin of tuna or salmon.

>  -Pre-fire man didn't drink milk, nor did he eat tofu or fish bones,
> but exercised outdoors more heavily than we are doing today. In
> addition, life expectancy was not so high (even if infant mortality is
> factored out).

And deaths from warfare. We just don't really know. Many also
argue that the quality of life years is more important than the
quantity (I personally would like both). ;-)

> I see no guarantee that an inactive woman, eating an
> uncooked stone-age diet (whatever it is) can live 90 years without
> losing bone density.
>
I am always the last person to claim that food alone is the
answer to health problems. Although it certainly plays a major
role, there are much too many convincing studies which also point
to other important aspects such as exercise, fresh air and sunlight,
peace of mind, being married and in love etc. which cannot and
must not be ignored.

>  -Final note: the above only addresses the issue of calcium. There are
> other reasons to eat dairy products (e.g. B12 for vegetarians), and
> other reasons to avoid them. In addition, dairy may benefit some
> people while being detrimental to others (if for instance one believes
> in the blood type-diet theory).
>
Whilst the B12 argument has still not been satisfactorily answered
(I even read that the bacteria in the mouth..providing you don't
use an antibacterial toothpaste or mouthwash..provide enough B12)
there is also the age old NH argument that milk is severely deficient
in iron (and that feeding an infant cows milk is asking for
trouble). Great Britain has apparently only just found this out!!
Read this (it makes you want to cry like many babies):

IRON SUPPLEMENTED FORMULA MILK SHOULD BE
FREE FOR INNER CITY CHILDREN  INTO THEIR
SECOND YEAR OF LIFE

(Iron supplemented formula milk related to reduction in
psychomotor decline in infants from inner city areas:
randomised study)
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/318/7185/693

(Commentary: Iron deficiency and developmental deficit
- the jury is still out)
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/318/7185/693#resp1

An iron supplemented formula milk rather than cows' milk should
be provided to inner city children who are not being breast fed,
say researchers in this week's BMJ.  Dr Jane Williams et al from
Birmingham Children's Hospital, along with colleagues from The
Northern Birmingham Community Trust and the University of
Birmingham, report that this would help to prevent iron deficiency
anaemia and the resultant reduced development in these children.

According to the authors, iron deficiency anaemia is common in
infants living in inner cities who are given unmodified cow's milk
during their first year.  Based on a sample of 100 children living in
the centre of Birmingham, the authors found that giving an infant
an iron supplemented formula milk for the first 18 months of life
not only prevents anaemia but also reduces the decline in
developmental performance that was observed in those given only
cows' milk.

In an accompanying commentary, Stuart Logan from the University
College London Medical School argues that the evidence of a
causal link between iron deficiency and developmental difficulties
is still unclear and that further research in this area is urgently
needed.

Contact:

Professor Ian Booth, University of Birmingham,
Institute of Child Health, Birmingham
Email:  [log in to unmask]

Stuart Logan,
Director, Systematic Reviews Training Unit, Institute of Child
Health, University College London Medical School, London
Email: [log in to unmask]


> --Jean-Louis Tu <[log in to unmask]>