At 4:10 PM -0500 1/4/02, David Griffin wrote:

>Yes-- and the United States was also founded-- and expanded via Manifest
>Destiny-- based on the will of God that Europeans were entitled to the
>Americas.

I wasn't aware of that. Could you elaborate?

> That is the "extent" of the "religious" Jewish state. If you
>concede that my initial questions were rhetorical, then it appears that you
>understand that there is no religious character at all to any state program
>or mechanism of Israel-- unlike that of Iran, Saudi Arabia or the Taliban's
>Afghanistan.

We seem to be talking at cross-purposes here. Or at least you are attributing your own beliefs to me. What is your definition of "religious"?

> Now it is up to you to look at the history of Zionism-- which
>was not religious in character at all, but always nationalist and sometimes
>even socialist.
>
>The only basis anyone has for Americans and Europeans classifying Israel as
>"Jewish" is the same basis that some people in predominantly Muslim countries
>classify the United States as "Christian": its Other-ness.

The US restricts immigration to people of Christian origins? I wasn't aware of that either.

> But the Zionists
>wish to capitalize on this brand of anti-semitism,

Once again you are asserting that it it is "anti-Semitic" to claim that Israel is a Jewish state. Your chain of reasoning, if I understand you, is that it is incorrect and thus the people asserting that Israel is a Jewish state do so out of an anti-Semitic belief that it is alien. There are a couple of unsubstantiated premises involved in your reasoning of course, rather obvious ones. I suspect that you haven't thought it out well.

> because the idea of Israel
>being specifically "Jewish" is one that serves to justify statehood in the
>context of American imperialist designs.

The idea of Israel being Jewish doesn't in any way justify its existence as a state in the context of my philosophy though. So how would that explain my error? To be honest though, I don't see how it could justify it to any rational person. It could only justify it to someone who believed that Judaism was the bearer of absolute truth.

Can you elaborate on what you refer to as "American imperialist designs"?

>But if indeed you admit to not knowing much about the issue, please do not
>spout off with any kind of authority about Israel being "Jewish."

I have said that I'm not speaking with any authority. That was just something you made up. I begin to suspect that what you really mean is that I should not speak at all.

However I've never been one to let my ignorance stop me expressing an opinion. I find that it helps me overcome my ignorance by allowing people to correct me. If I didn't say anything, no-one would know I was mistaken, now would they?

> At a time
>of heightened violence in the occupied territories, the last thing we need is
>ideological collusion with Israel-U.S. rhetoric on the nature of Israel as a
>state.

So disagreeing with your analysis is ideological collusion with the US and Israel now? I think you're taking yourself a bit too seriously mate. Anyhow, I'm not inclined to believe that Bush and Sharon will get much comfort from my purported "ideological collusion". Frankly, it is unlikely they care about my opinion one way or the other, so even if what you say were true (which it isn't) there would be no harm done.

Bill Bartlett
Bracknell Tas