Hi Peter...and Carol..and everyone,

As I have said I am cutting down my input to the list for
a while because I have other more urgent things than need doing.
This is not to say that I am not reading it of course. What
Pter said here was just too much and can not go unreplied.

> Carol:
> >>>And as for Alan claiming that he knows people who do well on it...
> >>>How different is that from your statement of fruitarianism's "poor
> >>>track record" if neither of you have scientific studies to back you
> >>>up?
>
> Peter:
> >>I do not need scientific studies to draw the conclusion that
> >>fruitarianism basically is a hoax and a health fraud.
>
> Carol:
> >You're sounding *exactly* like Alan there. :D
>
> How far are you willing to take this logic?  I am calling him a fraud
> based on his refusal to be held accountable for his claims.
>
> Peter:
> >>The raw-food archives provide more than enough evidence for me.
> >>Besides, I am not making the claims, Alan is, so I do not need to
> >>prove anything.
>
> Carol:
> >I would think you'd jump at the chance to back up what you say, if
> >for no other reason than to make Alan look inept by comparison.
>
> Alan has refused again and again to be held accountable for his claims
> - that is for anybody to verify by reading his posts to this list.  I
> am merely pointing out that the emperor is wearing no clothes. :)
>
>
> As I remember it, his comments about science were general in nature.
>
> Carol:
> >Anyhow... Everyone who believes that there is both good and bad
> >science does pick and choose, putting what they read into one or
> >the other category.  Hopefully, they do this by reading it for them-
> >selves and making their own decision, but some rely on "experts" to
> >do the thinking for them.  However they do it, everybody picks and
> >chooses.
>
> Show me some good science that even mildly suggests that humans can do
> well long-term on a vegan fruit-based diet.  Alan could not provide it,
> therefore he should have held back on those sweeping statements of his.
>
> Carol:
> >>>Seems to me that as much as we differ, Alan and I would agree that
> >>>putting a couple of scientific references at the end of one's
> >>>statements shouldn't be assumed to give that statement any more
> >>>weight. One would have to go back to the orig-inal article and read
> >>>it to find out.
>
> Peter:
> >>True but all it takes is one person to pull out the original article
> >>to refute the claims being made.
>
> Peter:
> >>then Alan makes vague references to successful fruitarians or
> >>sweeping generalizations about human health, with little or no
> >>evidence these statements are not falsifiable. At least scientific
> >>references can be checked on.
>
> Carol:
> >Yes.  And people can then make up their own minds about whether the
> >science in question is good or not.  And they won't all agree.
>
> True, but it beats trying to pin down Alan while he is playing his own
> private version of hide and seek. :)
>
For the record, and I'm sure anybody can read up all I've said
on frutarianism in the past in the archives, all I have said on
this subject is:

- I personally was a fruitarian for three years about ten years ago.
I gave it up ONLY because it was prooving to expensive to get good
quality organic fruit from the quality suppliers. I did not suffer
from any ill effects whatsoever (I fasted before engaging in the
regime BTW), enjoyed the best of health (subjective and still didn't
manage to cure my palmo-plantar pustulosis outbreaks) and cannot
supply any scientific reasearch (on me?) to back this up. You
could perhaps ask my wife and a few close friends of mine.

- To call me a fraud because I gave it up due to the expense is
taking things a bit too far. Shoot first and ask questions later??

- There are many people in Germany who report that they are
successful on fruitarian only (I'm no longer a fruitarian only..
remember?) and they all follow the advice of Helmut Wandmaker
(either directly from his seminars or indirecty through his
books (e.g. "If you want to be healthy, forget the cooking pots").

- Anyone who has not been successful should perhaps contact
Helmut. He is the "expert" in Germany and in our group..not
lowly I.

Personally I couldn't give two hoots as to whether frutarianism
is viable or not. All I was saying is that there are people
who report successes. Nothing more and nothing less. I would
add that the people over here who embark on such diets seem
to be a lot less "sensitive" and "uppity" than some people
elsewhere. After all, they are primarily only interested in
themselves and their own health and have little time or even
the necessary knowledge to engage in fruitless ('scuse the
pun) debates on the same in a certain list in the Internet.

Alan