Anju:
>...is there any reason that WE AS THINKING
>BEINGS should cause any more pain to other sentient beings than is
>necessary?

I guess it hinges on the meaning of the word "necessary". I personally
can't get worked up about the supposed "evils" of caged pastured
poultry--indeed it sounds like a _very_ humane method. It's not like
your
caging a wild bird--these are very domesticated breeds which
reportedly can
not forage for all their nutritional needs anyway, much less hold
their own
against predators unchecked.

>I'm not satisfied that keeping chickens in cages for their whole lives is
>necessary

There's that word again. ;) I suggest you don't eat these pastured
birds
then. Is it OK if anyone else does?

At my local supermarket a fresh 5 lb battery raised chicken is about a
$5.
A frozen pastured/caged chicken is about $15 for the same weight.
Fresh is
unavailable. How much are you willing to pay for a cageless chicken?
Since
it sounds like you are unwilling or unable to raise your own chickens,
kill
them, pluck them, and dress them. But you can criticize the people who
do
so that you can eat them, or not--your choice.

>and I KNOW that the way chickens are de-feathered in conventional
>farming is not necessary. (I've never visited a poultry farm myself but
>according to information I had gotten from what I believe to be reliable
>animal welfare sources, as well as video footage, defeathering is done by
>something like dipping into boiling water to loosen the feathers while
these
>creatures are still very alive and can feel pain.

Reliable animal welfare sources? I didn't know any such existed. ;) I
don't know what you saw in your video, but it isn't clear to me how
much pain a deheaded chicken feels. How is it so clear to you?

>If anyone knows differently, believe me I am the first person that would
>want to know.) I would really like to know if this is done differently in
>organic free-range poultry farming.

It's even harder with ducks which is why they cost so much more. ;)

Seriously, you will likely have a very hard time finding _any_ truly
organic "free-range" chickens available commercially. In general, the
producer spends a lot for certified organic feed and lets their
chickens
out of the coops for a few hours a day--perhaps onto fairly barren
land,
but it still counts as "free-range". Alternately, the
move-the-cage-daily
pasturers rarely use organic feed, but those chicks get fresh green
pasture
and insects all day and night. I'm sure there are delightful
exceptions,
but if you can devise a large scale and economical method of raising
truly
"organic" and truly "free-range" chickens you would be doing the world
a
great service. Perhaps you can even improve on the killing, plucking,
and
dressing techniques which you find so horrible. And then you could
share
much more than your karma complaints with us all.

>So are you saying that there is NO OTHER WAY to protect a poultry
>population from predators than by keeping them in cages 24 hours a day?

Depends on the predator.

You can kill the predators. (I drown mongooses daily after trapping
them.)
Is that "nicer" than a cage?

You can spend LOTS of money on fencing--which is simply a topless
cage--and
watch the hawks and eagles take their share.

I figure that I am the predator of both the chickens I raise (cageless
and
experimental and probably going to fail miserably) and any animal who
is
competing with me for the chickens. Aren't I _evil_? If I could kill
all
the mongooses in my area--I would, without batting an eye. And it goes
without saying that I hope to kill all the poultry we raise.

>FYI, your suspicions are wrong.

They usually are, but NYC isn't known as a wide open space and the
"cages"
are usually pretty small and expensive per square foot. ;)

Lets get back to your original query, before you got so worried about
plucking...

>Is there anyone else on this list that eats or wants to eat animal products
>for health reasons but is concerned about the animal cruelty in the
industry
>(keeping in mind that "free-range" and other such labels may be
>meaningless)?  I would love to hear how other people have resolved or are
>dealing with the two issues, or what your thoughts are.

I am not concerned much about animal cruelty. I am much more concerned
with
the quality of the animals raised as they are my food. IOW, if there
was a
new method which put electric shocks through the eyelids of caged
animals
and these animals had the excellent nutritional profiles of wild
animals, I
would delight that I could eat it, not bemoan that the shocks cause it
pain. Yet, realistically, cruel methods are usually not
health-producing so
we have a similar dilemma.

You'll notice that you didn't get much response to how people have
resolved
these two issues (animal rearing practices and human's need for animal
products). I don't think anyone has that one "resolved". The world
ain't
perfect, thank God. Some approaches:

1] Eating wild foods is an option but that means mostly seafoods
unless you
are willing to hunt, or have friends who could share their proceeds
with
you, or pay outrageuos prices from specialty meat vendors. Yet in many
cases (except maybe deer) eating a wild animal is problematic since
most
wild populations are under pressures of overculling and/or loss of
habitat.

2] Searching out the best local producers is often worthwhile. Since
you
have such a problem with the killing/plucking/dressing methods, you
would
be wise to buy your animals alive and process them yourself so you
could
have total control over the humane methods.

3] You could ease up on your expectations of perfection in the source
of
your animal food. Not abandon them, but just live in the real world,
find
your best sources and then eat with joy. Every fruit tree in every
organic
orchard displaced wild plants and animals, yet you don't bemoan that
when
eating a pear, do you?

4] Raise your own animals for consumption to your own high standards.

Cheers,
Kirt

Secola  /\  Nieft
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