Hi Kirt,

> Alan:
> >You are getting tiresome...and as I have only 5 mails per day
> >on this echo I will reply in future to those who supply something
> >tangible and perhaps useful rather than someone who obviously has
> >nothing better to do with his/her spare time than complain about
> >all and sundry without any counterarguments.
>
> Interesting you should say that...
>
With good reason I think.

> >You give the impression
> >that you have some sort of (health?) problem and are rather
> >frustrated.
>
> As far as I know, I am in very good health. Frustrated? Yeah, you got that
> right. You jump up and say all sorts of nothing and act like you have a
> corner on it--yeah, that's frustrating in it's way.
>
It is the way you take it. I do not "act like I have a corner on it"
I am merely conveying our way of thinking to you, i.e. for serious
discussion and criticism. So just cool down and come back with some.

> >As to the numerous research papers on milk (at least
> >those which were not funded by the milk industry) I would need
> >hours to name them all (try the Diamonds for starters as this is
> >neither a new nor unknown subject and there are plenty of quotes
> >even in there to keep you satisfied for a few weeks).
>
> The Diamonds, as in "Fit For Life"? Sheesh, Alan, I thought you had more up
> your sleeve than this. ;) I did, in fact look into for FFL I & II's
> reference list (many many years ago) and was shocked at how stupid they
> both were. TC Fry's egoshine course on Health isn't exactly a
> "reference"--neither are Ann Wigmore's pronouncements. But you are right
> that it only took a few weeks--to see that they had cherry-picked (and
> mostly from bogus sources!) their whole reference section.
>
I am no Diamond supporter..in fact far from it (they are not even
raw foodists!!), nevertheless the milk research quoted was just as
sound as any other during that period.

Here a few more recent reports on milk for you to chew on (although I
don't intend to waste my time repeating tons of research reports
every time I open my mouth in this list). I just don't have the
time or the inclination and find mutual personal experiences from
say at least 20 people doing the same thing more reliable anyway.

F. M. Sacks et al "Plasma lipoprotein levels in vegetarians: the
effect of ingestion of fats from dairy products". JAMA 1985;254:
1337-1341.

J. Karjalainen et al "A bovine albumin peptide as a possible
trigger of insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus". NEJM 1992;
327: 302-307

T. M. Ellis et al "Early infant diets and insulin-dependent
diabetes". Lancet 1996; 347: 1464-1465

M. G. Cavallo et al "Cell-mediated immune response to ß casein
in recent onset insulin-dependent diabetes: implications for
disease pathogenesis". Lancet 1996; 348: 926-928

J. Outwater et al "Breast cancer and dairy product consumption".
Med. Hypothesis 1997; 6: 453-462

A. Taylor "Violations of the international code of marketing
of breast milk substitutes: prevalence in 4 countries". BMJ
1998; 316: 1117-1122

A. Costello et al "Protecting breast feeding from breast milk
substitutes. The WHO code is widely violated and needs
monitoring and supporting". BMJ 1998; 316: 1103-1104

World Health Organisation (WHO) Infant and young children
nutrition. Geneva 1993.

> You might be interested to know that the Daimond's have divorced. Harvey's
> picture on his new "TC Fry" website looks like the standard brand
> fruitarian emancipation poster child; and that axel (was it axel?) claims
> Havrey ate meat and found it useful (or something like that).
>
As I said.....

> Truth in advertising: I got into alternative diets via FFL. :/
>
> >If you want
> >a few German papers...I can quote them as well.
>
> A few German papers, eh? Sorry, I can't appreciate the German language,
> though I hear it has such outstanding nouns that they need no adjectives,
> and for that I am very impressed. What you need to impress me logic-wise is
> any study that says raw vegans are actually healthier than those eating
> junk. I already agree that fruits and veggies are healthy components of the
> diet so don't bother with that...
>
Your last sentence describes me..and many of my friends and
acquaintances (not only in Germany) are living examples. As to
"impressing" you, I am not out to impress anybody (each to his
own and to hell with the rest), I'm just interested in exchanging
information and experiences. I'm not going to continually argue
and bicker (as you seem to do) as it leads to nothing and just
fills up innocent people's hard disks. If you also are healthy
and thriving on your diet then good luck and the best of health
to you mate. This whole show is still basically a personal
thing..although it would be nice if we all reach a ripe and
healthy old age and are still corresponding when the "others" are
long gone.

Alan