Kirt:
>>I think some of the problem with some of the human reaction to killing may
>>be a bit nuerotic in nature.
>axel:
>for some really weird reason, many, many people do not "feel" like killing
>animals, or that killing is ok. now of course you can say it is for this or
>that, but who knows. we can make really interesting theories for ever. some
>people feel they have a spiritual part. also an emotional being or body. on
>many levels it makes a lot of sense NOT to kill sentient, intelligent beings
>that are SO similar to us in many ways. on another levels, like health, it
>might make sense to eat animal products. but that is all there is about it.
I seriously doubt that it all there is to it. We are attracted to ideations
for complex reasons...
>i do not buy any hunter instinct stuff.
Watch the play of, even vegan, children, especially boys and you will find
the hunting/stalking/killing theme often. It is almost humorous to hear
vegan passivist parents share their frustration that though they expose
their children to no media violence, have no "violent toys"--still their
children use a stick (or anything) and turn it into a hunting weapon.
Millions of people hunt and fish even though they can get their food
without killing.
Luckily, you don't have to "buy" any hunter instinct. ;)
>i know this list is about food
>specially, but still i feel like sharing how i see things. lately i am
>starting to sense that there has to be a way to be vegan and really healthy
>in this world. there has to be a way to work it out. i mean, it makes sense
>at ALL levels except that some people need animal products for their health!
>this is something.
This paragraph is unintelligable to me for the most part. If you want to be
a vegan, be a vegan. Just don't try to tell me you are better than anyone
else because of it.
>not wanting to kill sentient beings is a "maternal instinct"?
An overgeneralized maternal instinct, yes. Maybe. As you say, who knows?
>it might be for some, but you can not apply it to all people that refrain
>from killing animals or not participating indirectly in such killing thru
>buying animal products.
It's just an idea, alex. The mammalian maternal instinct is a better
"given" than puffy ideas about "spirituality" to me. To each his/her own.
>why so many people find horrible the killing of animals? are some of them,
>as you say, "a bit neurotic"? give me a break!
>neurotic for not killing animals? come on! it is absolutely HORRIBLE, IMHO,
>to KILL an animal!
No it isn't. It's a serious event packed with sensation, emotion and, for
humans, various ideations. That you are so touchy on the subject hiints
that it may be a complex for you. Who knows?
>have you done it, kirt? how many people that defend
>animal products on any level can actually go and kill animals? not many,
>right? i know, i know, this is said again and again, some might say "vegan
>brainwhasing"
I have killed animals for food and will kill _many_ more in the future. It
is not horrible to me. I have killed animals (rats) that simply want to
live in my space as well. This wasn't horrible either.
>a part of me just do not accept that god, because i do believe in god, can
>create this conflict between many people=B4s ethics and their biological
>needs. it does not make sense.
A lot of things don't make sense, but that we are mammalian omnivores with
the capacity to be tender to each other and the capacity to kill our food
isn't one of them. It's just the way it is.
>also, are you all in this mailing list so scientific? is science the best
>way to find truth for you?
I am not seeking any Truth. Science has its pros and cons as practiced. If
you want to vegan regardless of the contrary evidence, go ahead. It'd be
nice if someone figured out how to trick their own nature into such a
regime successfully and then there would be less harm done to the folks who
aspire to veganism--not to mention their children.
>IMHO, being disgusted with the idea of killing animals, or watching an
>animal being killed for human consumption, or not wanting to kill animals
>yourself, is not a maternal instinct codified into a rule of conduct. it can
>also be seen as a natural spiritual emotional part of many human beings that
>intuitively do NOT like killing AT ALL
Well, of course you're going to say that, axel. ;) What's the alternative?
Admit that it has become a neurotic ideation? "Freedom" for you may one day
be to kill an animal that you eat, working through your resistance to the
idea.
>>flavors of "killing is bad" fundamentalism.=20
>
>it might not be in your ethics, but is not necesarily fundamentalism. it is
>a very valid and real posture that many human beings share.=20
Its' fundamentalist to be because it is very rigid black and white thinking
combined with rightious superiority. PETA believers are in the same class
as the people who kill abortion clinic staff and those who kill the other
guy because of their religious ideations.
>>Saying we shouldn't kill for food, is to my mind, just as perverted as
>>saying we _should_ kill our kids. Both are extreme distortions of our
>>nature IMO.=20
>
>you mean our physical nature. our nature is not only our body.
Last time I checked my brain was indeed part of my body and it will suffer
immensely without the rest of it. The brain is big enough to make up all
sorts of "truth", including the idea that we are something more than a
brainy mammal. Go ahead and be a spiritual vegan if you like struggle for
some reason. Consider yourself better than those who don't share you "deep
compassion" for animals.
>there might
>be a way to be well without animal products. maybe highly mineralized
>vegetable food, lots of sunshine and living outside and doing lots of
>exercise? it could be.
Sure could. Let us all know when you figure it out.
>Calling either a process of refining or perfecting evolution,
>>or an experiment in high morality and spirituality just makes it more
>>perverted IMO.
>
>please clarify. one thing is that you do not think that veganism is
>appropiate for health reasons, but another thing is that it is perverted.
>why is it perverted?
Because it denies one's own biological inheritance at the same time it sets
someone up as "special".
>>There will always be those who respond with the "but wouldn't it be nice if
>>we could see all of life as our family?" The question makes about as much
>>sense to me as "but wouldn't it be nice if we could kill every living thing
>>on the planet?"
>
>i really do not know if you are serious or just kidding.
I'm not kidding at all. Each of the above are radical departures from what
it means to be fully human and healthy to me.
>it sounds like you
>do not take seriously people=B4s desire for a more peaceful and harmonic
>world. is this the case?
Like, forest, you somehow think your lunch has anything to do with world
peace! Are _you_ serious? ;)
The peace and harmony you may need isn't out there in the world but inside
yourself. If you had such harmony I can't imagine that you would be so
attracted to a diet that continues to fail you so miserably.
>do you have dreams for a better world, with less
>violence and cruelty?
My world has very little violence or cruelty. I enjoy the world I live in
and find its contrasts part of the delight. I don't dream for a better
world.
>honestly, it sounds like you are making fun of this. respecting other
>beings, not hurting other beings, not causing suffering to beings with
>capacity to feel just like you is not a stupid nonsense, you know?
Taken to the PETA extreme, yeah, its nonsense. Perhaps if you deal with
your own suffering, alex, and you might not need to perseverate on the
"world" and dreams.
>also, just curious, what are your ethics?
I don't know.
>what things do you think are good
>and bad?
I don't know.
>do you think the world can change for the better? if so, how?
It is not a concern for me.
Cheers,
Kirt
Secola /\ Nieft
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