Axel Makaroff <[log in to unmask]>:
>how do you guys know that the long term track of raw vegan is what you say?
>how many long-term raw vegans are there in the united states, or in the
>world? does anybody really knows? what percentage of them report their
>state of health to other people? when you say raw vegan does not work in
>the long term for many: how many are this many, and what percentage of the
>total world-wide raw vegans represents? i have the persistent feeling, (and
>i had it two years ago when i first joined here, but correct me if i am
>wrong) that some of you guys seem to talk about a limited experience, like
>the raw vegans you know or have heard of, etc. who really knows the number
>of raw vegans in the world?

Tom:
Of course my views (like those of all others) are based on, and limited to,
the allegedly long-term 100% raw vegans I have met or heard of. This is
also true of those who claim 100% raw vegan is the greatest diet on
earth, and a cure-all.

I would also point out I am a former long-term 100% raw vegan myself.
I was not a success at the diet, despite eating extremely high quality
foods, getting plenty of exercise, fresh air, sunshine, breathing, and
having very high motivation. I did succeed at being a long-term raw vegan,
but at the expense of my health. That is too high a price to pay, and
thus I cannot consider myself a genuine "success story."

The point I have been trying to make is that when one looks closely at the
"success stories", one finds that the claim is usually not accurate. The
person might not be 100% raw as claimed, or "cheats" or makes "exceptions".
Other times the person is not healthy - physically, and for "long-term"
100% raw vegan, good mental health is the rare exception rather than the
rule. Looking for people who are obsessed with dietary purity and display
symptoms of serious eating disorders? In my opinion and experience, the
pool of allegedly "long-term" 100% raw vegans, and the raw "diet gurus"
are examples thereof (i.e., obsessive, mentally unhealthy).

I recently had a long discussion (~2 hours) with someone who has worked for
many years for a major raw foods Institute (sorry, I cannot reveal which
Institute or the person's name). We discussed the sorry state of
the 100% raw "role models". She told me that EVERY claim of long-term
100% raw vegan that she has encountered over the years, eventually turns
out to be false.  I too have (so far) found every claim to be dubious, false,
or uncertain (unknown) at best.

I have also mentioned that:

1. There are some claims of high % raw (below 100%) vegan, long-term,
that may be credible.

2. I have heard one or two claims of people succeeding on 100% raw vegan,
long-term, on a diet based on avocados (fat). To date I don't have enough
data to evaluate such claims. Such claims may be plausible, unlike,
say, the claims of a certain fruitarian "guru" to live on a diet of 97%
fruit, and only 4-6 pieces of sweet fruit per day (that fruitarian -
a woman - is an obvious phony).

3. One person who reads this list - a friend - claims to have succeeded for
9 years on raw vegan (details of the diet are not available to me).
This person is no longer a vegan, though his claim may be genuine.

Your point that there MAY be a very few people out there, quietly
succeeding at 100% raw vegan (on avocado-based diets) merits consideration.
However, if so few can succeed on it, why bother with it? There are
plenty of other good diets around. Humans are natural omnivores/faunivores,
we are not frugivores (despite the crank science claims that we are
fruitarians). Humans can and do thrive on a wide variety of
diets, raw or cooked, veg or non-veg. Why try to limit yourself to such a
narrow diet as 100% raw vegan, for a long-term maintenence diet?

Finally, the idea that a very few folks might - in theory - manage to
succeed on such a diet, is very interesting when we contrast their quiet,
peaceful, private behavior with the public behavior of so many 100% raw
"diet gurus": i.e. hateful extremists, intellectually dishonest promoters
of crackpot crank science (e.g., false, bizarre theories like "fruit is
just like Mother's milk"), people who claim to live on diets whose calorie
content is below starvation levels, people who claim to be spiritual but
are active allies of hateful plagiarists, people who claim the diet improves
their mental state but who react with intense anger and hate when their diet
is challenged, etc).  As I mentioned above, some of the raw diet gurus
provide textbook examples of people with a mentally UNhealthy relationship
with food.

Tom Billings