Hi Tom,

> >>Tom:
> >> Indeed, some of those promoting fruitarian crank science, do so in a
> >> vicious, hateful and dishonest manner (in my opinion).
>
> Alan:
> >I wonder why? Where are you? There aren't that many cranks over
> >here (at least not on the nutrition front).
>
> Tom:
> A good question. Several fruitarians were expelled from this list for
> extreme hostility. Certainly makes you wonder about the diet.

It would seem that there are still plenty of those "left-wing
hippies" around over there. We would call them "fruit and
nutcases" over here. :-)

The fruitarians that I know over
here are pretty docile and tend to just "do their own thing".

> PS I am in California.
>
Lucky you..as long as San Adreas keeps quiet.

> Alan:
> >To be honest, such cranks are usually loners and do not belong
> >to some recognised and "serious" group.
>
> Tom:
> Although some of them are loners, there are groups of crank fruitarians,
> also an e-mail forum that promotes (fruitarian) crank science.
>
Well not being a 100% fruitarian myself.. I have no wish to
subscribe to it. Good for you for not mentioning the address. ;-)

> Alan:
> >No calcium problems reported. Zinc is a problem when eating produce
> >from zinc-depeleted soils (large-scale agriculture).
>
> Tom:
> I had severe cramps on the fruitarian diet, which may be due to calcium
> deficiency (or possibly another cause).

Have not heard of this one here as yet.

> Fruitarians commonly report
> "light" mental feelings (even on organic food),

Clearer thinking?

> and loss of libido.

A worldwide problem..usually cured in most cases by getting onesself
a different partner..or taking Viagra..or both. Prostitution and
pornography have always existed and survive and thrive to this day.
Which indicates to me that monogamy is a luxury for a lucky
few (me included..so far..BTW). Seriously though (even though I
was being serious with the latter), I find it easier to maintain
mine on a stomach full of easily digestible food..although it
does of course slow down with age (a "natural hormone problem" which
is often miraculously "cured" when a new love enters your life).

> This
> may be due to zinc deficiency, i.e. is a plausible cause. One raw vegan
> reported such symptoms long ago on this list, and said that the
> symptoms went away on taking zinc supplements.
>
Mild goitre (and often severe) is a real problem in Germany. They
eat enough fish and iodine-enriched salt but the land is
severely depleted of zinc. It nearly breaks your heart to see
young and attractive newscasters and moderators on the TV
(and in the street) with that typical bulge in the neck.

> Alan:
> >There is no such thing as a protein deficiency. Do you know of
> >anyone with such a complaint? Human protein is built from
>
> Tom:
> Check "Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease", vol. 2. See the chapter
> on PEM: protein-energy malnutrition.
>
I can bodybuild very well on my diet. Although I am basically a
lazy sod and don't start doing it until right about now.

> Alan:
> >Never heard of "anti-protein fanatics"..at least not here. If
>
> Tom:
> The anti-protein fanatics are all on another forum.  :-)
>
Protein is aminos..so what are they eating??

> >>Tom:
> >> Calories may be inadequate (look at the emaciated fruitarians).
>
> Alan:
> >I suspect you are looking at the emaciated macrobiotic crowd (of the
> >past as nowadays they realise that raw grains are the culprit).
> >I do not know any emaciated fruitarians. What do you mean by
>
> Tom:
> Macro folks eat *cooked* grains, not raw.

It wasn't so much the enzyme inhibitors that were the problem
Tom, it was the gluten/gliadin, which does not disappear when
grains are cooked. The macro crowd were eating mueslis made from
raw, ground grains. Many believe this stuff to be the "bees
knees" from the point of view of nutrition (and they even
mistakenly add fruit to it) even today.

> Some fruitarians have body weight
> 30% below average -- in the range associated with anorexia nervosa.
> If you consider such weights as 'natural', then you need to rethink
> your view.
>
I cannot comment here because I don't know what your "average"
is. My "normal" weight seems to be 74 kg..and I don't ever go
below it as yet. I would say here that each and every person
has his or her "normal", i.e. natural weight, and this has
nothing to do with averages. What use is an average weight
to either an extremely tall or extremely small person (or
even any in between)?

> >Tom:
> >> This may explain
> >> the diabetes-like symptoms displayed by many fruitarians:
>
> Alan:
> >Unknown here. Please fill me in.
>
> Tom:
> 1) The diabetes like symptoms were listed in the original post, and you
> commented on them (below).
> 2) Diabetes-like symptoms are COMMON on fruit diets. Ask a group of
> rawists about excessive urination, and you will find it common.
> Axel just posted about this (on raw vegan, not necessarily fruitarian?),
> a few days ago on this list.
>
> >>Tom:
> >> urinating
> >> every 5-10 minutes,
>
> Alan:
> >Known only from eating raw stringbeans.
>
> Tom:
> False. I have experienced it myself, even when not eating string beans.
> By the way, many fruits are *diuretic* - they increase urination.
>
I am aware that fruitarians and raw vegans urinate more than
"normal" eaters. They consume more water in raw fruits and
veggies than in cooked food. Urinating is excreting and is
a positive rather than negative aspect. But every 10 minutes?
This phemomena is totally unknown here. I (we, you) would
need more info here before being able to comment.

> >Tom:
> >> pains in joints,
> >> intermittent blurred vision,
>
> Alan:
> >Known only by those who omit unsaturated fats.
>
> Tom:
> False. I personally had those symptoms on a fruitarian diet that included
> large amounts of avocados, rich in poly- and mono-unsaturated fats.
>
False is the wrong word Tom. I was merely saying that it has not
been reported here. I'm not a fruitarian (as you now know) but
I follow their reports here, i.e. both within our own group as
well as within other groups. I must admit (after reading your
reports about all sorts of ailments which are largely unknown
here) that I often wonder which fruits are being eaten and
in what quantities (percentages). If I had some info on this
I could at least present it to our fruitarians for comment.

> >You have extremists?? We certainly have the emotionalists and the
> >religeous..and they can be extreme. But extremist fruitarians from
> >the point of view of nutrition???
>
> Tom:
> We have had fruitarians here who were/are extremist from nearly every point of
> view. But most of all, they were/are unable to function like civil human
> beings. One e-mail list, and one crank science forum, exist because the
> owner and/or key members, were expelled from this list for their
> hostility and/or dishonesty. You seem to be unaware of the deviant behavior
> so common among 100% raw vegan/fruitarian "role models".
>
I am aware that some (at least here) are 100% because of ethical
or moral (or both) reasons..but they usually freely admit this
and can thus be judged from these standpoints. But those here
who seriously eat raw for health reasons are generally the first
to complain if "things are not going their way".

Best regards,

Alan