Francois,
> F : You write somewhere that an english translation of Burger's book is
> available on the web, but I couldn't find it. Burger isn't dogmatic at all
> in his writings, except maybe in some very ancient texts.
Ancient? ;)
> You're free to experiment with cooked food, as
> well as I'm free to experiment with fully raw. I don't pretend, nor Burger
> would, that you are wrong and we are right : we are just experimenting and
> telling sometimes what results we obtained.
This sounds all very politically correct, but you and I both know that
Burger (and probably you) think instincto is "right" and the rest, if not
misguided, wrong.
> F : I would agree, no one obtained them alltogheter. But each must have been
> obtained independently, though, as I said, Burger and Comby seem to me a bit
> too optimistics. They are not Gods and their claims aren't all accepted
> whithout questionning by other reasonable instinctos.
We have a lot of common ground if you are admitting that Burger is too
optimistic.
> F : The troubles due to cooking can happen long after LRS (remember our
> friend Stefanie?), and that's why selective presure is probably low, leading
> to very slow adaptation.
Maybe, maybe not. It is an entirely open question methinks.
> K : My guess is that we are not perfectly adapted to an all raw diet
> anymore, but
>> of course, we are likely not adapted to a cooked diet. (...)
> F : You may be right. In this case there wouldn'be much hope. (Here I just
> recall the exact words of Burger !)
Hope is the ultimate pain killer, no? ;)
The idea that if we aren't perfectly adapted to all raw foods then there is
no hope makes me wonder how you don't consider instincto "right" and cooked
"wrong".
> K : (...) It probably gets boring because one has fewer nutrient detriments
> after
>> a time instincto, so everything/anything raw tastes OK but nothing comes
>> close to the ecstacy of the first months/years of instincto.
>
> F : I think it is highly a matter of personnal feeling here. And whether you
> are hungry or overfed, there's a big difference. But what you say is often
> true for a particular foodstuff : the first discovery is the more ecstasic
> and you may never get again the same. But for me, the level of pleasure is
> still great after 15 years, though my food choice range changes somewhat
> over the years.
Yeah overeating and hunger have a lot to dod with it. I am glad you are
still enjoying!
> I learned some days ago about the "aquatic ape theory" (AAT), and I
> like it. Where our close ancestors realy lived? Could it be they were well
> nowhere? Did we come out from a mix of different phylums? We know little
> about evolution and there are many mysteries left.
I have a soft spot for AAT too, but it doesn't look much tighter than
instincto theory at this point. ;)
> K : How long have you been at it? F: 15 years
> K :What were you eating before?
> F : A lot of cheese and macaronis ! But no refined sugar, no junk food nor
> coffee since 1964.
Yeah, of course, instincto is better than that. To decide if it is better
than a mixed raw/cooked paleodiet, one woul have to experiment further, no?
> K : I know what you mean about more pleasure, but I'm telling you my
> experience which includes
>> more pleasure with mixing and cooking than with instincto.
>
> F : What can I do for you? If you like it so, go on so, I don't mind. But,
> please, do not agress Burger or myself about that!
Burger needs agressing. Indeed, the instinctos like yourself and your
friends are doing honesty and integrity a great disservice in your hands off
attitude about criticizing him. It makes you all look like you sympathize
with him and his behaviors.
> You're right, Homo Sapiens Sapiens is more recent than
> the mastery of the fire. But what does it prove?
It casts doubt on the supposition that we are best off with an instincto
diet. It doesn't prove anything.
> F : Wild animals get sick when the human observer is not aware that his
> food leftover, refuse and garbage are dangerous for the animal he's
> observing. This was the case for Jane Goodall living between chimps, as well
> as all other observers. The reports of dinosaurus dieaseses proved to be
> false, except very rare cases of minor skeleton abnormalities.
Are you saying there is no disease in wild animals without access to human
garbage?
> K : Subtract humans from the planet--like they never evolved--and there is
> still sickness
>> and disease.
> F : It looks like there would be very much less.
Agreed. But there is would still be sickness and disease.
> K : Further, it may be that cooking helped pre-humans avoid other
>> diseases associated with fecal and other contamination of decomposing
> animal
>> foods. Who knows?
> F : You are wildly conjuncturing.
Wildly conjecturing? Not really. There must be an overall positive trade-off
toward cooking or it wouldn't be so prevelant.
> I did read on BV website that cooked meat
> rot while raw meat gets gamy.
Meat that is cooked is eaten, not left to rot. Raw meat does indeed rot,
especially in humid climates.
> F : No, I was born in 1946 and I don't remember of any American there. I was
> not allways at Montrame for exactly one week. I went there for the court
> jugment of Burger in last Novembre and spend only 24 hours. I think it is
> open to outsiders on some holiday periods. Orkos folks work and live there.
Thanks for sharing.
> F : Here we brush our teeth and do not run after a mongoose escaping from a
> garbage can...
> When my former wife got malaria in Penang, I rushed to the pharmacy.
You are wise.
> K : My limited
> understanding is
>> that many of the early Burger cronies have disagreements with particular
>> aspects of instincto. Enlighten me?
> F : You're right, but most disagree with the concepts of the
> "metasexuality".
Good on them!
> This shows that we are not a sect of indocrinated fanatics.
But still you defend Burger.
> There's no
> believes in the concepts due to Burger, they are just theoretical models. We
> aren't a monolithic group, some eat 100% raw, some 100%organic, some 90%
> Orkos and some try it for a short while. There are some who can eat
> instincto at 90% for decades, but most of the pioneers still do it at 100%.
> But everyone has some particular views and understanding.
That sounds like how it should be. Now if you would quit cutting Burger so
much slack, I'd really be impressed. ;)
> F : As far as I am concerned his mental health is OK and I do not know about
> his intimate behaviour, except by hearsay. Since I don't know, I won't
> spread gossips.
Cop out. If you are pals with his old friends you know what he has been up
too. Dismissing it all as heresay is simply an easy out IMO.
> F : Hawaians would probably have less problems if they stop to eat wild
> animals feeding on garbage and cooked food leftovers. But I'm sorry, my
> knowledge of the conditions there is nil and my medical one is very limited.
Ano is the only one who got sick with trich. Others have not eaten mongoose
and have had other problems.
> K : And why would trich be
>> dangerous to an instinctive eater? Is it dangerous to wild animals?
> F : I suppose it is and that they get it after foraging human garbage.
Why don't the mongooses die from trich?
> I suppose
> Zhepyr (Ano) doesn't run after mongooses anymore. But they d'be all right in
> a unpolluted environnement, for sure.
How can you be so sure? Because the theory says so? I thought it was all one
big experiment. But you can't dismiss informatiuon if it runs counter to the
predictions of the theory. That's just cheating.
> K : Then you are saying that large scale cooking is only 10,000 years old,
> no?
> F : Yes, doesn'it sound logical, since before there was no pottery? Some
> food could be grilled but it remains a mystery whether it was a current
> practice or not. It could have been in some locations and not in some
> others.
The logic fails. There are many cooking methids that don't require pottery.
> F : You ignore the examples of ever bigger hospital and ever increasing
> number of very sick and suffering cooked food eaters of every age.
I don[t ignore them at all. They just don't "prove" instincto theory. I am
comparing an entirely raw paleo diet with a mixed/raw paleodiet. Comparing
either to modern eaters is almost pointless.
> F : He is the youngest Burger son, about 25 now. A very nice guy.
Yes, I met him when he was young. Didn't recognise the name.
Anyway, you are proving to be quite a reasonable fellow in many ways. Don't
know what else to say. Maybe I should go back to instincto and you can start
some cooking and then we'll have further notes to compare, eh? ;)
Cheers,
Kirt
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