David Mayne:
>> I would have to respectfully disagree on the "very direct" part.
>> jr has not responded to a single question that I asked him,
>> either on raw or in private, except for telling me to stop
>> posting on the NFL, and the following au revoir:

Dave Karas:
>This is jr's way of being direct. If he does something he say so.

Not always.  It was his expressed intent when he started his list to
embrace everybody in a spirit of brotherly love & universal acceptance and
that authoritarian measures were never to be implemented.

>However, if he doesn't want to discuss something, he will not respond. I
tried to >discuss eating raw meat with him privately and he did not respond.

This is indeed his privilege.

>I took that to mean that he was not willing to discuss this.

A very astute observation. ;-)

>I believe that he reads this list but again he may not respond.

Well, now at least I will not be sitting up all night in suspended
anticipation. :-)

>I knew him when he was living in southern California six years ago. As a
>former majordomo list owner, I have tried to help him with
>configuration problems when he has asked.

Maybe he found somebody else to help him or maybe he did not feel he had a
problem in the first place.  In any case, I think we should respect his
right to privacy and refrain from discussing these matters publicly.

David Mayne:
>> So. don't really know exactly why he kicked us off, but I can
>> make some guesses about myself. It somewhat surpises me that
>> he kicked off Liza as well. I can say that one thing the
>> three people above appear to have in common - they all spoke
>> out against the NFL at one point or the other.

Dave Karas:
>I think, in his eyes, you continued the thread after he had asked to
>end it. Other people had spoke out against NFL. Gene was an excellent
>example. He made very strong points against NFL.

So did so many others.  However, that is no reason to kick people off with
so little warning.  He at least owes to tell his subscribers that if the
content of their messages are not to his liking, they risk being removed
from his list with little or no notice.

>I was going to post something but I waited too long.

You can say that again.  NFL have quit selling books and gone and joined
the Foreign Legion. ;-)

>I saw the warning from jr to drop it and decided not to push it.

Push it?  I understand that you have never posted to that list.  I am sure
that you would not get booted off for your first post even if you were
being a little critical of NFL.

> I thought you did very well and applauded you. I wish that you had had
copies of both >books and could have given your own plagiarized excerpts
instead of just posting >Peter's and Kurt's.

I doubt that would have made any difference as Jr's fuse on this subject is
obviously very short.

>I had some, it was very easy to spot.

And now you tell us. :-)

>The only difficulty was sometimes finding the corresponding chapter in NFL
since not >*all* chapters were in the same order.

Maybe they can change this for the next edition. :-)

>They deserved everything you said.

Innocent choir boys they are not. :-)

> I am really disappointed with NFL.

Do not tell me that you had great expectations of these troubled souls? ;-)

>The attacks turn me off. This has been their style all along and is why I
unsubscribed >them before.

Yet, they are still with us posting through Vicki Dorn. :-)

>Stephen's "No Thanks" reply to your invitation of coming back on this
>list was typical.

I saw this remark as a rare glimpse of vulnerability.  David Mayne had just
thoroughly refuted their arguments and Stephen's only response was "no
thanks".

> If he tried his attacks here it would have quickly gotten him on review.

Not so trigger happy. ;-) Review is an option that is rarely used - if for
no other reason then because of the extra work that is involved.

> We welcome anyone interested in raw food here if they are willing to be
civil.

Somehow I doubt that this has escaped anybody on this list. :-)

>The bit about talking to their lawyers about suing Peter for posting
excerpts from >their book makes me wonder if David Wolfe is telling the
truth about being in law >school. I am not a lawyer and I know about the
Fair Use provisions on the copyright
>law. How could a law student not know?

You mean that attorneys always play by the rules? ;-) NFL has never hidden
the fact that they consider the best defense to be an all out attack.

"Raw Eating":
>>>THE RIGHT OF TRANSLATION OR REPUBLICATION IS RESERVED BY
THE AUTHOR BUT
>>>QUOTATIONS AND EXTRACTS MAY BE MADE BY DUE
ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF THE SOURCE.

Dave Karas:
>Did NFL meet that requirement. I think that they fell far short of his
>request.

Saying that they fell far short of his request is certainly a very polite
and understated way of putting it.  :-)

> Too bad they could not have honored him more.

And admit that the whole book was plagiarized?

>It appears to be his research that was published and copyrighted under
their own
>names.

You are stretching the word "research" to its outer limits but yes they
stole the whole thing and claimed to be the originators of it.

NFL:
>>>>All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced, in part
>>>>or in whole, by any means, except for brief quotations embodied in
>>>>articles and reviews, without the express written consent from at
>>>>least two of the authors.

That is because in these matters they know that they cannot even trust
themselves. ;-)

Dave Karas:
>Is there some way that I could get ATERHOV's written consent?

Maybe you could find a good psychic channeler? ;-)

>He was definitely one of the authors.

You sound very sure of yourself.  Maybe "Raw Eating" was a plagiarized
version of the Macedonian classic "The Spartan Gourmet". ;-)

> Some might say he was the only real author.

They have obviously not heard of "The Armenian Authors' Network". ;-)

>You might call them editors.

And very creative editors at that. :-)

> However I would not. Since they did not give him proper credit as the
source, I see >them as plagiarists.

You are sure that you are not going out on a limb here? ;-)

>It is a shame. They are smart and personable.

Personable off-line, yes.  Smart - that part has eluded me. ;-)

>I would expect better of them.

Here you go again with those expectations of yours. :-)

> Possibly they will do better in the future.

I see no indication of this happening in our lifetime. :-)  They only way
they would stand a chance would be to denounce their fruitarian ideology
and give a public apology for their plagiarism & hostile behavior.

> I think that they should paste an insert into all copies of the book
>stating the true author and that they had only modernized it.

Now you are talking. :-)

> Until this happens I would not buy anything coming out in their names.

You are a very prudent consumer. :-)

>AFAIK I still claim this honor.

Not really. For all practical purposes NFL are still on this list which
leaves us with  Bob Avery who is welcome to re-join us if he will
acknowledge the guidelines for posting.  The same for Rene Beresford who
actually left the list on his own accord hours before he was officially
kicked off and therefore does not really count. The posting guidelines for
this list are so easy to comply with anyway that anybody who wants to be
part of it can do so with minimal effort.

>Our rules are clear and we make every attempt to work with a
>subscriber. When this fails off they go.

Easy Dave, everybody is welcome on raw-food. :-)

>Unless I have unsubscribed someone for cause, they can re-subscribe when
their mail >problem is fixed.

Dave, maybe you should go a little easy on the RAF. :-)  If we have room
for NFL on this list, we have room for everybody.

>Also I got tired of bounced messages coming back to my in box, so I
>have set the list to full auto delete. If your mail box gets full,
>listserv deletes you without my ever seeing it. AOL has this problem
>more than any other provider. Unless I have unsubscribed someone for
>cause, they can re-subscribe when their mail problem is fixed.

Good for you.  You have been very patient in dealing with this on-going
hassle.

David Mayne:
>> Perhaps jr will update his raw welcome message and www page to
>> say that folks who speak out against the zealotry and against
>> the NFL are not allowed.

Dave Karas:
>We shall see. jr is this the way that you see yourself?

Since you have established that he rarely responds to inquiries of any
kind, I take it this a rhetorical question.

>Also with regards to unsolicited e-mail, I don't think I have received
>any because of this list or its archives, but it is hard to tell since
>I mainly use one address.

The main reason that you are not being spammed could be that you post so
rarely.

>raw-food list owner and raw food eater. My diet includes RAF & ROF.

And now you tell us? ;-)

Best, Peter
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