Hi Peter,

> Mark:
> >When I eat an alfalfa sprout, a living being, I am a killer.  If I feel
> >remorse or guilt about being a sprout killer, I might choose to tell
 myself that I performed the act with kindness, compassion and mercy.

Peter:
> This is definitely a possibility. But if you acknowledge that some people
> truly feel these sentiments on a deep spiritual or emotional level, then
> the question begs how do you determine them from those who are obviously
> trying to fool themselves?

I can't tell who is fooling themselves or not.  By raising the issue I
hoped that if anyone was fooling him/herself, that they would come to their
senses.

Mark:
> >For most of us this is a hypothetical situation.  How many of us give
any thought to the feelings of plants?

Peter:
> Are you saying that feeling guilty for eating any food, plant or animal,
is   a natural and healthy sentiment rather than an expression of neurotic
> obsession?

No.  I certainly never worry about what plants "think" or "feel," and I am
not suggesting anyone else should.  I can see how my words might have
suggested otherwise, tho.  They were sort of an intro to another thought &
probably should have been deleted.

Peter:
> Are you suggesting that when people face their guilt that it then goes
 away  and that if meat eaters do this that, they then can eat meat with a good
> consciousness? These would indeed be radical words coming from a vegan
> sympathizer. :-)

I don't know if the guilt would go away.  But at least it would be honest
guilt, not covered up.  Incidentally, it is not my intent to make anyone
feel guilty.  I am sure that most meat eaters eat meat because they feel it
is necessary, not because they enjoy killing animals.  Now, maybe someone
who is convinced meat eating is bad for them and eats it anyway ought to
feel guilty.  (And I'm sure they do, without my pointing it out.)  As far
as being a vegan sympathizer, I like to think I an an equal opportunity
sympathizer towards all people, regardless of race, religion, diet, etc.
This is probably self-delusion on my part, but hey, I'm trying!  :-)

Mark:
> >killing done "mercifully."  After all, how many people really
investigate whether the animals they eat were killed "mercifully"?

Peter:
> I am positive every meat eater on this list does.

That statement intrigues me.  How do y'all go about doing so?  :-?

Mark:
> >I haven't been in a slaughterhouse, but I would think that the
> >professionals are trained to kill the animals efficiently and quickly,
> >certainly more so than would be possible with a gun at a distance.  Of
> >course, this probably doesn't take into account the fact that in a
> >slaughterhouse, it may be that the animals next in line can smell the
blood and hear the cries and probably know what is coming.  (You may not think
> >they're that intelligent, but I do.)  So from a psychological
standpoint, maybe their suffering is greater in a slaughterhouse.

Peter:
> You just made my point. :-)

Glad to have saved you the trouble.  OK, so apparently you were speaking
about psychological suffering.  But unless the hunter kills instantly with
a single shot, I bet Oscar Meyer does a more humane job from the standpoint
of physical suffering.

Peter:
> When vegans express the compassion they feel for carrots when they pull
> them from the ground or the mercy they feel for fresh, green Spring
leaves   as they pick them from the tree, are you just as adamant about pointing
out  their hypocrisy as well? ;-)

After picking myself up off the floor from laughing I would indeed point
out such hypocrisy.  Ain't heard such sentiments expressed yet, that I can
remember.  Of course, my memory is terrible.

Peter:
>> I often feel terrible guilty about eating meat - both for the animal and
> the environment - but it is my contention that these feelings are
socially  & psychologically conditioned.

Perhaps so in your case.  For those people who feel a very strong kinship
with animals the feelings may be innate.  On the other hand, maybe ALL of
our feelings, guilt, love, the whole schmear, are conditioned.  Hmm, I'll
have to mull that one over.  Too deep for me at this time of night.

Thanks for keeping my gray matter active, Peter!

Mark
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